Why Some Muslim Women Don’t Wear Hijab

By Dian Kuswandini on 11:16 am Aug 15, 2012
Category Archive

First of all, I’m a believer: I’m a practicing Muslim. Second, I don’t wear hijab. And from here my story starts.

One day, a male friend tagged me on a note in Facebook; it’s about a conversation between a non-Muslim man and an Islamic cleric.

The man asks: “Why does Islam oblige Muslim women to wear hijab?”

In answering the question, the cleric takes out two candies; unwraps one of them and throws them both onto the floor. He asks: “If you have to choose, which candy will you pick?”

The man answers: “Of course I’ll take the wrapped one, because it’s the clean one.”

The cleric goes, “Indeed. In Islam, we protect our women through hijab.”

Feeling disturbed with that degrading analogy, I sent him a message.

“Do you suggest that non-hijabi Muslim women are dirty? And how come you compare women with candies?”

This guy replied, “Don’t take it to your heart. Just understand that wearing hijab is an obligation in Islam, and shouldn’t be compromised.”

It wasn’t the first time I engaged in that kind of conversation with Muslim men like him —  those with the “I’m more Muslim than you” syndrome. They thought they knew Islam better just because my appearance doesn’t “represent” Islam.

In between our debates over Qur’anic verses and hadiths (saying of the Prophet Muhammad), they always slapped me a hadith telling that non-hijabi women would be burned in hell. “Remember that,” one of them warned as if he has secured himself a place in heaven.

They even called me a follower of the Liberal Islam Network (JIL), just because I refused to be forced into wearing hijab. Never in my life I’ve joined JIL nor attended its events — I don’t even agree with many of JIL’s ideas. Yet one guy easily condemned: “You can deny you’re a JIL follower, but you act just like them, so you’re one of them.”

At least I’m not the only one to receive such a condemnation. Respected ulema and former Indonesia’s religious affairs minister Quraish Shihab was once called an agent of liberal Islam and was slew with harsh words when he released his book on hijab, which argues that Islam never strictly determines the limits of women’s awrah (body parts to be covered).

Many accused him of writing the book in favor of his non-hijabi daughter, TV presenter Najwa Shihab. In his book, “Jilbab: Pakaian Wanita Muslimah” (“Jilbab: Muslim Women Attire”), Shihab  presents different views of ulemas in the past and the present on hijab, encouraging readers to analyze this issue from many perspectives instead of following something blindly. He says Muslims should realize that there are other “menus” offered in Islam, and it’s important to note that Islam never intends to complicate its followers.

In fact, it’s Muslims themselves who complicate things by opting for the strictest views. On hijab, Shihab quotes Imam al-Syafi’i, one of the founders of Islamic jurisprudence, who said: “I cannot say — and even others with great knowledge will never say — that this (the hijab law) has been mujma’ ‘alaihi (universally agreed).”

Many Indonesian Islamic figures in the past, Shihab says, were very relaxed toward hijab. Although he didn’t precisely identify them, I can name famous figures like Buya Hamka, Mohammad Natsir and Agus Salim. Today, however, it seems like hijab is everything that counts in an Indonesian Muslim woman.

In 2007, I went undercover and lived for few days among prostitutes in a famous red light district in Jakarta for my investigative report. Several prostitutes there — mostly the senior ones — wore hijab. When I told this to those same friends, they said I shouldn’t link hijab with one’s piety and profession. Muslim women must wear hijab; their professions would be another case. So I asked, “In which part then hijab can protect women when they work as prostitutes?”

I’m not against hijab — who knows that someday I might wear it? But it’s the harsh judgments on one’s personal choices of religious practices that have made me swallow aspirins now and then. I can’t agree if some Muslims force something into others, like it’s God’s unquestionable truth. Even Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) couldn’t force his beloved uncle to embrace Islam.

Remember, something that’s forced will create nothing but hatred and antipathy. Do you realize that your silly hijab campaigns might be counter-productive and make non-hijabi women view hijab negatively?

You, Mr. “I’m more Muslim than you,” are angry if someone calls you a terrorist because you wear Arabic attire. And you say, “Don’t judge me from my clothes.” Now dear brothers, please apply your words as well to your non-hijabi sisters — don’t hold double standards.

  • timmy

    If u said u r a muslim u supposed to believe all that Qur’an said n practice it
    hijab is mentioned in surah An-Nur:31
    if u dont do it then it means u have just denied who u believe, Allah SWT
    and Allah is the omniscient

  • Hanafi Benmaleh

    Apply cold water to burned area..

  • kierun

    And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed. (An-Nur : 31)

  • Salahudin Sadono

    “Following something blindly”?? It’s written in the Quran if you don’t know.

    • TalkingEid

      Really? Actually I don’t know – what makes you think a woman’s hair is her ‘private parts’? Are you an Arabic scholar Salahudin? Can you explain to us how the Quran has been mistranslated into so many languages?

      • Valkyrie1604

        Eid, the guy’s just showing off! People like him often pick verses from their holy scriptures and take them out of context and when questioned can not elaborate on the issue. I call it dumb.

        I would like to inform SS that if he’s able to follow/live accordingly to what’s written in his holy scriptures then I’m a donkey.

        And, for the writer of this article, I wish to tell her that it is not “some” but many. Yes, it becomes many if they attend a religious function. Otherwise, NO!

        • MadWorld

          SS= Schutzstaffel?

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Hi, are you an Indonesian?

          • Valkyrie1604

            MW, tell the guy you’re a proponent of the Aryan race. Ha! Ha!

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Wow, I’m so touched that the aryans cared so much about Muslim’s matters. I assume you have nothing better to do. Ha! Ha! Ha!

          • Valkyrie1604

            I am sure you did not understand the exchange between MW and myself. It certainly shows, as I suspected!

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Wow, congratulations for being right at least once!

          • GypsyMacaque

            Nope SS does not fully understand the irony of his BELIEVE.

          • OOPs

            does that matter? Or are only Indonesians permitted a view?

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Nope, I’m just amazed that the people outside Indonesia/Jakarta are actually being in a fuzz about something that don’t even related to them. (For example), I never really cared when the catholics were killing the christians. I just, couldn’t, care, less.

          • GypsyMacaque

            Is this of great importance to you? and your next question will be probably, am I moslim? May be you will be surprised, because I am a MadWorld.

          • GypsyMacaque

            Make a guess.

        • Salahudin Sadono

          “My holy scriptures”? So, you’re not even a Muslim? So why are you here, calling people dumb and such?

          • Valkyrie1604

            Aha! From the tone of your response, it looks like the hat fits you quite well. Must I be a Muslim to cast an opinion and why the surprise?

            Can you live according to what’s written in your holy scriptures? I hate bring a donkey but why don’t you make an effort to answer my challenge? If you follow this thread carefully, you’ll observe that another poster used the word ‘dumb.’

            SS, when you ‘sell’ something please ensure that you are familiar with the product. Other than being looked upon as being dumb, it also creates hypocrisy.

            Look once more at your response and search your conscience. Then tell me if I did not post something truthful.

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Well, don’t go blaming other believers if you can’t live according to “your” holy scriptures. Your choice, your own responsibility.

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Well, don’t go blaming other believers if you can’t live according to “your” holy scriptures. Your choice, your own responsibility.

      • Salahudin Sadono

        Quran is meant for everyone, not only for your-overrated-arabic-scholar. I don’t need to be the-so-called-arabic-scholar to understand it.

    • http://www.facebook.com/uphiedragon Uphie Abdurrahman

      There are alternative tafsir too. Islamic scholars like Nawal El-Saadawi believes that the scripture reading of “cover up yourself with cloth down to your bosom” does not have a literal meaning — instead it is metaphorical. Either way, you miss her point: don’t judge people based on their outfit. Focus on that first.

      • Dezmond Edison Christian

        Therein sits the issue Uphie with much Islamic scripture, the interpretation and compounded by no definitive global ruling body. For someone who wishes to follow an hard-line agenda they can find the words – for others who wish to follow a more liberal format the words are there too
        The problem Indonesian Muslims and infact wider face is the agenda is driven by those wishing to adopt a more conservative ‘brand’ and many of those are willing to blindly kill or violate to achieve their beliefs
        Islam in Indonesia is being taken along a route alien to many but by the time they are brave enough or abused enough to stand up it may well be too late
        This is compounded still further by a general lack of education throughout the Islamic world, the rulers need a dumb and compliant population to ensure minimum obstruction to the financial abuse – an example is the willingness to beat a couple for holding hands but turn a blind eye to corruption

        • devine

          Well said!

        • MadWorld

          Touché.

        • Salahudin Sadono

          What’s so bad about the-so-called “conservative”? And what’s so good about “liberal format”? As we can see how corrupted America is, even though they’re so “liberal”.

          • Duncan

            Sala
            There is nothing wrong with being or even being called a conservative – right up until the point that person uses his beliefs to oppress others. Then to my eyes that is not just wrong it is illegal
            In Indonesian Islam there are many fine conservative Muslims, but there are many who use their belief to justify all manner of hate including violence
            Do you support the conservative Muslims who justify violence by Islamic teachings?

          • Salahudin Sadono

            No.

          • devine

            Good to know that there is no corruption in Indonesia, or at least not by the Islamic parties :) Ahhh…sorry, its another type of corruption, one that is ok… right?
            Wonder why drinking alcohol or gambling is haram and gets you caned in Aceh a but stealing trillions of the people’s money is OK…

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Of course it’s OK. It’s from the infidels.

          • devine

            So you are on the take too, Salahudin, right? And as an excuse you will tell us it is for the purpose to forward Islam…

          • GypsyMacaque

            Elaborate, who are the infidels according to your opinion, which political parties, which part of the society, which part of the moslim faith, I really want to know if you please.

      • Salahudin Sadono

        So what’s the “metaphorical” meaning, then? I’m so eager to know.

        • DrDez

          Sala
          The term ‘hijab’ which literally means curtain, appears 7
          times in the Qu’ran, alternatively indicating a metaphorical meaning; a concrete object and an eschatological reference. Semantically hijab or jilbab refers to the concept of separation, which can be literal, metaphorical or even abstract.

          In its concrete meaning segregates individual or groups. In history the hijab was the curtain behind which the rulers where hidden. The practice is documented first with the Umayyads and Abbasids and whilst the prophet did not himself practice it he did for his wives and the wives of the 4 rashidun.

          This argument is key among liberal v conservative scholars
          of Islam, of which clearly you do not feature. The fact that the debate exists is good – however those with a conservative disposition like the FPI, Bashir, Taleban etc tend towards a violent means to an end

          I hope that helps

          • Salahudin Sadono

            If the Prophet Pbuh himself practiced it, why won’t we? Nuff said. And btw, what should the womens do then if they interpret the word ‘Hijab’ “metaphorically”?? Your answer is still not complete. Try harder.

          • DrDez

            But the prophet did not practice the head cover, that is the point – it seems that many Muslims believe he practiced hiding his women behind a curtain, like in a hareem, whilst he did the court stuff and not that he forced women to cover their hair – even the quotation someone gave above refers to private parts – to my mind its a sick man who considers head hair to be private parts
            In fact the head cover in the middle east is a practical garment not a religious or sexual one
            So if you follow this you would not support the head cover as an islamic necessity as millions do. But you chose to believe what you are told and thus another schism within Islam is exposed –
            Your response demonstrates unbending intelligence, intelligence unable to even accept that it might be wrong. Try harder

    • Valkyrie1604

      Not only dumb, but also blind.

      • Salahudin Sadono

        I’m really sorry to hear that. It must be hard for you to live like that.

  • Da’wah is on

    first of all, it doesn’t matter whether or not people
    complain about wearing “Jilbab” since it won’t change the rules of
    hijab in Islam.

    Secondly, rule of hijab is not simply about wearing
    “Jilbab” for women. In Islam there are six aspects of hijab (related
    to clothing) and it’s applied for both men and women, which are:

    - clothes must cover the aurah (physical body parts). For
    male, they need to cover their body from their knees to their belly button
    while for women they must cover their whole body except for hands and face,

    -clothes must not be transparent that other people can see
    through,

    -clothes must not be tight that it shows the figure of the
    body,

    -clothes must not be too glamorous that it attracts the
    opposite sex,

    -clothes of opposite sex is forbidden to be worn, and

    -clothes must not resemble signs of the unbelievers (example,
    symbols of other religions)

    • Dezmond Edison Christian

      Da’wah

      FPI protesters below – transparent, figure hugging, quite sexy I’d say –

      What followed next was most droll… As the protest went to the Palace screaming kill Corby the young ladies all slide off into Plaza Indonesia and dumped the arabic garb to reveal quite lovely young smiling faces, tight jeans and in 1 case a mini skirt

      • Salahudin Sadono

        No proof = hoax.

        • DrDez

          well actually there was a series of photographs I posted them on a blog (my blog) last year, the photographs were taken by my son in law outside the Grand Hyatt – the same day as the bus caught fire

          The blog was taken down after a huge (and I am talking hundreds) of death threats to me by Muslims who screamed hate, when actually the discussion was about how the FPI members are mostly just people trying to make a buck and only a few driven by hatred –

          Believe what you like Salahudin, it makes little difference – The girl in stripes is second from the right in group pic, her name is Fitri, the one wearing see through clothes. It was photographed 10 minutes later in Plaza Indonesia

          The bike shot is a family heading off after the demo with their ‘gifts’ for protesting – oil, rice etc

          Please think before you reply

          • Salahudin Sadono

            I really don’t know how to react. Your photos shows nothing… -_-

          • nico

            You are a glass full of water, you need to empty your glass first to see what really happened.

        • Valkyrie1604

          Are you also blind? Just look at the above picture and see what the two girls on the far right of the photo are wearing. I can not see any modesty in their attire at all.

          Now look at the far left corner and focus on the guy standing. Does he look familiar? For certain he’s not a tourist.

          I don’t believe your Almighty is happy with what you’ve done.

    • TalkingEid

      Same question to you Da’wah is on – are you a scholar of Arabic? Or simply repeating what someone has told you the Quran says?

      • Rajiv

        Why should one be an Arabic scholar to understand what the Noble Qu’ran demands of us? If it is in the Noble Qu’ran then it is law that all self respecting Muslims must follow to the T, no BUTS.

        Islam is not a smorgasbord where you could pick and choose to suit your sinful deviant life. It is all or you are an apostate!

        • OOOPS

          Why should one be an Arabic scholar to understand what the Noble Qu’ran demands of us? OOOPS

          Muslim scholars and commentators of Quran are unanimous on the view that no one has the right to interpret the ayats of Quran according to ones personal view and opinion, this is the functions of scholars. Many traditions are narrated in this regard. We present below a few examples of the same:

          1. The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) said: One who interprets the Quran according to personal opinion[77] he makes his place in fire (Hell).

          2. One who interprets the Quran according to his view,[78]even though it may be right, yet he has committed a sin.[79]

          There are some of the traditions that are related on the topic. Now we should see what does interpretation on personal view mean.

          The great commentators have given three meanings of Tafseer Bir Rayy and we shall explain each of them briefly.

          1. If the commentators forms an opinion before conducting considerable research it becomes a cause that the word which has two meanings and there is no indication which meaning should be taken or an ayat is enigmatic from the aspect of its meaning and it becomes necessary to remove its doubt and ambiguity with the help of other ayats but the commentator explains it in a way which is in conformity with his preconceived notions. In other words to justify the established beliefs and preconceived notions become the cause that one does the Tafseer of a particular ayat without any testimony and method, on the basis of his beliefs and instead of making the Holy Quran his guide and leader, he moulds it according to his own views. Also he were not having these views previously, he would never have interpreted in this way.[80]

          Examples of this type of Tafseer Bir Rayy is seen in the books of those who follow the Motazela, Ashariah, Batiniyyah and Sufis. When a commentator has fully accepted the views of the Motazela or Ashariah school of thought regarding the attributes and actions of Allah and the people, when he comes to those ayats regarding whom it is possible to interpret them according to his personal belief. And these ayats may have a different inner meaning from that of the apparent meaning and he may interpret them according to his beliefs. And instead of presenting his beliefs to the Holy Quran. (To evaluate on the scale of Quran). He presents the Holy Quran to his beliefs. (That is he does the tafseer of the Holy Quran according to his belief) and on the basis of his personal whims and desire, distorts the meaning of the ayats.

          Kashaf the commentary of Zamakhshari[81] is a living example of the interpretation of Quran according to the beliefs of the Motazela. In the same way Mafatihul Ghaib of Fakhruddin Razi is the tafseer of the Quranic ayats according to the Ashariah school of thought. Both these commentators had tried to justify their predestined beliefs in the light of Quran and they were not ready to release themselves from their past beliefs that by freeing themselves from their original faith they should have made the ayats of the Holy Quran material of their research which were revealed regarding the attributes of Allah and the deeds of men.

          There is lots more but I got bored

          • GypsyMacaque

            Like reading the entrails of a dead chicken.

      • Salahudin Sadono

        Why should he repeated what someone has told him what the Quran says? Everyone can read Quran. Just read it yourself.

        • Valkyrie1604

          I can’t because it’s in Arabic. Can you? BTW, please read what was posted by ‘OOPS’ I have to respect that as translations might be adulterated.

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Wow, you sure are giving up easily. I wonder if someday you’ll give up your life.

  • devine

    How simple … you don’t wear a headscarf and you are a bad Muslim (person) and you wear one and then you are a good one…
    No wonder all the bad things, foremost corruption, continues in our country….
    ___
    And since only about 10-15 years ago almost NOBODY wore a headscarf, means that now most are good people and before all bad….

    • TalkingEid

      Indeed Devine – creeping Arabisation of Indonesia

    • Soldier

      no no no. you can’t judge people by their outfit.
      but, the truth is most of people will judge people by his outfit
      example:
      we can judge someone is a soldier by his green outfit and his attitude.
      but, are the people who wear the soldier outfit are soldiers?
      of course not, many people sells shirt with the similar pattern with soldier outfit, but that doesn’t make the people who wear the outfit soldier
      a good soldier will wear his outfit in his duty

      now if we see a woman with hijab, we can tell that woman is a muslim
      but, are all the woman with hijab are muslim?
      the answer is no, the christians and jews has their own model of veil
      a good hijab will save the woman an the man, save the woman from the man, and save the man from the possible crime comitted
      and if you meet with a woman with hijab, but she has bad attitude, why would you blame the hijab?
      if you find a dumb soldier, would you blame his outfit for his dumbness?

      conclusion: not all women with hijab has good attitude and understand the essence of hijab, but a woman who understand the essence and has the goo attitude will wear hijab

      • devine

        Your conclusion; it is again not free will! “…but a woman who understand the essence and has the goo attitude will wear hijab…” She wears it because she is told (mostly by men) that she is only good if she wears the hijab…
        Until up to about year 2000 hardly any women wore a hijab in Indonesia… so why did they not wear it then…? Please explain…

  • http://al-terity.blogspot.com/ Alterity

    Wear what you like. End of discussion.

  • Rajiv

    Wearing the jilbab or the hijab complete with full covering except the eyes are essential for all Muslimin without exception.

    SOURCE: http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html

    Hadith – Bukhari 1:148
    The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. ‘Umar used to say to the Prophet “Let your wives be veiled,” but Allah’s Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam’a the wife of the Prophet went out at ‘Isha’ time and she was a tall lady. ‘Umar addressed her and said, “I have recognized you, O Sauda.” He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of “Al-Hijab” (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

    The Noble Qur’an – Al-Ahzab 33:59
    O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils)* all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    *the arabic word here is Jalabeeb (plural of Jalbaab), which is the loose outer garment that covers all a woman’s body. It says here to use the Jalabeeb to cover all, and scholars say this means to use it to cover her head (agree upon by all scholars) and her face (agreed by many scholars, not all) and one or both eyes, in order for it to be known that she is a free woman and so not to be exposed to any harm.

  • abelardev

    Hi, I’m not a feminist nor an extremist. I do even wear a hijab while writing this comment. I’m a Muslim myself, and I’ve worn hijab for about two months by now. Let’s say that I’m still dull about Islam, I’m still a learner, and what I’m about to write is just a personal experience.
    I just think that I got Kuswandini’s point of being so offended because of the hijabi thingy. I didn’t just vicariously think that way, but I used to be in her feet. Before I wore hijab, my old brother kept telling me that not wearing hijab is a violation of Islamic rules.. and I’m not a dutiful follower because of that. How shameful I was! Didn’t he make me thought that I was such a dirt in our religion, that I was not worth to be appreciated as Muslimah?

    Did I ever want to wear hijab after his saying? Believe me: no, not at all. All I kept thinking was, “Why Islam is so forceful and shockingly unfair because it doesn’t let us, girls, to choose what we want to wear? Isn’t–for what I’ve believed in for years–Islam a religion about loving and sharing?”

    What made me decide to wear hijab then? My dad. I asked my dad why Muslim girls must wear hijab. My dad, shockingly gave me a sophistry answer, “You must not to. You must choose to. Allah asks you to, but life is always about choosing.”

    Do you feel the difference between my brother’s and my dad’s saying? My dad’s is a relief for me. There is no force to practice Islam, you just have to voluntarily choose to practice it well. Finally I made my own volition. To voluntarily take hijab as a part of me.. all in all, by my will.

    We, Muslims, need to know that we can not keep offending our brothers and sisters in practicing religion or it can be our own divider. Instead, we need to show the world that all Muslims are brothers and they love each other. We can remind our brothers if they do something wrong, but we can’t just dictate and punish them for what they do not know. We, Muslims, can always remind our sisters to wear hijab, but we can’t force them to. Reminding does not equal to humiliate, to irritate, or to unjustly vex. Remember: Islam is never forceful. It is about sincere–ikhlas–not brought about by coercion. Show the world that Islam is precious!

    • devine

      No… your story tells that it was NOT of your free will but because of brainwashing… feel sorry for you! But then it is ok too… guess it feels good now to walk around in Arabic attire (import) in multi-cultural Indonesia…

      ___

      And… your quote “we need to show the world that all Muslims are brothers”… are you sure you are a brother? I guess you are actually not a girl at all…

      • Salahudin Sadono

        In other comments you’re shouting about how women should be free to do what they feel like. Yet now you’re yelling at someone who weared hijab because of her own will. Congratulations on your double-standard!

        • devine

          I fail to see the “free will” in this statement : “I asked my dad why Muslim girls must wear hijab. My dad, shockingly gave me a sophistry answer, “You must not to. You must choose to. Allah asks you to”.
          So if you dont do it you go against Allah… is that “free will” (in this context)?
          And, why is she not asking her mother and grandmother?

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Since when did having a religion gives you free will? If you dislike religion, then don’t bother to have one. Piece of cake.

          • Equus

            So, technically, religion is some form of military organisations ?
            You know, when your superior gives you a direct order, you cannot question the order, even though it is morally questionable ?

            Geez, even the actual military allows lower ranking officer to disobey order from the highest command if it violates certain military values or code of conduct.

            &

            If the Almighty don’t want me to think, to use my free will, then why don’t He made us all Muslim. That would be swell !

            Everything would be Muslim-y, and everyone will get along just fine. Oh wait, even among Muslims there are deep dissent, foolish me

          • GypsyMacaque

            Dear oh dear the word “sophistry”according to Webster=reasoning that is superficially plausible, but actually fallacious .so her Daddy said, you must not to, but, Allah free will, so you must wear hijab. Very confusing indeed.

        • devine

          I fail to see the “free choice” in abelardev’s post…

    • devine

      “Show the world that Islam is precious”…. how about PEACEFUL and ANTI-CORRUPT first…?
      A hijab does NOT make you a good person… much much more is needed for that and, just a hint, it has NOTHING to do with clothing…

      • Voxclara

        Wasn’t this topic appeared some weeks ago? Weird that it is made current.

        • devine

          It is from the JG Archive, 15.8.2012…

          • TalkingEid

            Slow day at the JG I guess.

      • Salahudin Sadono

        Why should you scream? Turn the capslock off please. And of course being a good person has everything to do with clothing. You won’t wear a slutty outfit to a church, right.

        • devine

          Talk here is not about going to a religious ceremony but what to wear day in day out. And putting a headscarve on does not make you better person…
          Quite a weird view that good dressed people are good people and the others hence not…
          And, are you seriously saying that any women that does not wear a headscarve is in a slutty outfit… ?

    • Voxclara

      @abelardev, you said: [Remember: Islam is never forceful. It is about sincere--ikhlas--not brought about by coercion. Show the world that Islam is precious!]

      Have you ever studied your Koran where there is no tolerance shown to non Muslims (infidels), where extreme hatreds are encouraged towards Jews? Would you still insist your religion is never forceful?

      Here are two video clips where hatreds are instilled in the youngs. Not forceful you said?

      (video links deleted. Editor)

      You know, these people in the two videos are merely “choosing” Allah’s ways as spelled out in the Koran. No different from you “choose” to wear the hijab. I wonder if you would be good enough to enlighten us what you mean by “sincere, ikhlas, no coercion, not forceful” in light of the two videos above. Then there are the FPI shocking treatments of Christians which are inline with the teaching of the Koran too. Another example of not forceful, nor coerced but sincere and precious ? And what about the Ahmadyah?

    • Duncan

      Abelardev

      Q. We, Muslims, can always remind our sisters to wear hijab, but we can’t force them to.
      A. In fact in many parts of the world including in some areas of Indonesia women are compelled by law to wear head covers. Wider peer pressure at appearing not to be a ‘good Muslim’ is simply astounding in other areas including Serpong where I live.
      Q. Reminding does not equal to humiliate, to irritate, or to unjustly vex
      A. I refer you of the above where women are routinely beaten even raped and I also remind you of the behavior of SATPOL towards many women, Fuzzy, Mazuki and others comments re mini skirts
      Q. Islam is never forceful. It is about sincere–ikhlas–not brought about by coercion.
      A. At this point I wondered if you lived in Indonesia or were even a Muslim, however ..
      I refer you to Ali and the MUI and the West Java governors statements about conversions, the forced conversion of Papuan children, Ahmadiyah, anyone who wants to marry a Muslim etc – I refer you to the intensifying global violence carried out by Sunni Muslims v other Muslims, including here by groups representing Islam. I am sorry to tell you that Islam IS forceful and IS NOT sincere
      I am pleased your father ‘gave you the choice’ – however perhaps that in itself is part of a wider indoctrination issue relating to personal human rights – is it his head you cover or yours?
      Previously you obviously did not want to cover, what has changed?
      Do you feel a ‘better Muslim’ now?
      If so, what has changed, what are you doing now other than self oppression you was not doing before? Have you suddenly devoted yourself to god’s work and joined a poverty elimination program? teaching for free?
      If you just feel better, well that’s good, but it shows that ritual has become more important than belief and that clothing is more important than deeds, perhaps a thinking lady like you should ponder that

      Q. Show the world Islam is precious…
      A. Why do you need to show anyone? Why should the world care about what you believe unless you are trying to force your views upon them?
      The day Muslims start having a personal relationship with god and are less concerned about the face of religion and controlling what others think will be a good day for the rest of us and for many Muslims too

  • devine

    Obviously you never had a smorgasbord…! Try it first and then post again… and just a hint… there is NOTHING sinful about a smorgasbord…

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Actually the smorgasbord is prohibited in your belief. Eating it is a sin.

      • devine

        Hahaha… I love smogasboard once in a while… I guess you would too… just try it…

    • Valkyrie1604

      It’s a sin because it’s a Swedish Christmas festival.

  • devine

    Wrong Rajiv! Lucky that many Muslims disagree with you! And if you have not noticed yet (see your quotes), we are not Arabics but Indonesian here…

    ___

    And… as to your “in order for it to be known that she is a free woman and so not to be exposed to any harm”… are you aware how many veiled women are raped and misused in the Islamic world every day??? Very obviously not…

    • Soldier

      sister, why is your hatred toward hijab and it’s supporters is unbelievably high?

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Many Muslims? Veiled women are raped in the Islamic world every day? The statistic please? Or don’t bother to show it, because I believe you won’t be able to show it. Don’t talk without proofs.

      And Rajiv never said that the verse is mentioned for the Arabs. Read again.

      • Duncan

        Rape cases in Pakistan reported by The Express Tribune
        (A Pakistani news paper)

        Note 2 things , the number of children raped and also
        the amount of Islamic officials involved. I chose Pakistan because most women are covered. Please google Pakistan’s
        ‘shame’: Rape cases in 2012 For the full and massive list – here’s a few to give you a flavor

        Political worker accused of raping Hindu girl A 14-year-old Hindu girl, N, was raped allegedly by a local leader of the Pakistan
        Peoples Party (PPP).

        Heinous crime: ‘Child rapist, murderer’ arrested Accused first raped and then strangled the girl. He left her body behind a local school and fled.

        Strange but true: Police register rape case against eight-year-old Mankera police in Bhakkar arrested him for allegedly raping two women.

        Under attack: Journalists threatened for reporting
        rape caseReporter received threatening calls for reporting the rape of a six-year-old girl in Meghwadh colony.

        Abuse: Five-year-old girl allegedly raped The girl
        went missing while she was playing on the street outside her house.

        Raped for seeking justice Cruelty seems to know no
        bounds in our country with even fewer regards given to basic human rights.

        Five peasant girls gang-raped for ‘demanding
        wages’Five peasant girls were gang raped by their employers, because the girls asked them for their wages.

        Police rape — a grave failure The gang-rape case of a
        13-year-old female child victim in Ratta Amral, Rawalpindi, spoke of the baseness of human nature.

        I refer you to the recent report by Konmas detailing 50% of Indonesian children are sexually abused …

        • Salahudin Sadono

          Ooh how I miss the Turk’s Caliphate. I know everyone hates mustafa kemal attaturk.

          • GypsyMacaque

            You know why Turkey can not join the EU.
            ISLAMOPHOBIA.

  • MadWorld

    The more you are engaged in a discussion with a pious moslim, the dumber they become.

    • Salahudin Sadono

      I’d prefer being dumb than being said that I am smart by a madman.

      • Valkyrie1604

        But you protested when I insinuated about being a dumb? Now, you admit a preference to being dumb? The proof is in the pudding….I mean the postings.

      • Good,Bad and Ugly

        You will note that very few of us are madmen. Unless of course it is simply because they question your blind faith and unquestioning obedience to something which you cannot and do not wish to prove.
        I love listening to (edited) people.

        • Salahudin Sadono

          I’d prefer having a blind faith than being called open-minded by (edited) people.

        • Salahudin Sadono

          I’d prefer having a blind faith than being called open-minded by (edited) people.

          • Good,Bad and Ugly

            Baaaah! Baaaah! I am goblok, a proud beledug. I prefer to stay stupid and dumb and racist. I do not want to hear other opinions and learn. Nobody needs freedom and liberty. and the world is flat. They’re coming to take me away haha.hehe. hoho.

          • Valkyrie1604

            Are you aware of what you posted? Once again, it’s showing.

          • TalkingEid

            epic ‘fail’

      • mauriceg

        Ah, the old chestnut of labeling kafirs as madmen, and unworthy, and less than Muslims. Well, I’m a kafir. I’ve had a good education, and while not the smartest kid on the block, have a brain that gets regular exercise. I use the sense of right and wrong with which all of us are born (although many Muslims have that particular skill beaten out of them), giving rise to answers such as the above.

        • Salahudin Sadono

          Congratulations! You’ve just wasted your “good education” by commenting here.

          • mauriceg

            A good education never ever goes to waste. I still have it, you see, even after responding to some of your comments. I do have a question, though, and its answer depends on you being intellectually honest with yourself and others:
            We in the non-Islamic traditions use the word ‘conscience’ to mean thoughts or actions carried out or considered, using one’s innate sense of right and wrong. (whimsical example: helping get a cat out of a tree, or rescuing a bird with a broken wing, or more seriously, rescuing someone from danger, at the risk of your own life). Where do, you Salahudin Sadono, personally stand with regard to this idea?

          • MadWorld

            Empty pots make the most noise (vasa vana plurimum sonant).
            So does empty head.

      • mauriceg

        Ah, the old chestnut of labeling kafirs as madmen, and unworthy, and less than Muslims. Well, I’m a kafir. I’ve had a good education, and while not the smartest kid on the block, have a brain that gets regular exercise. I use the sense of right and wrong with which all of us are born (although many Muslims have that particular skill beaten out of them), giving rise to answers such as the above.

      • GypsyMacaque

        Damnant quod non intelligunt( They discredit that, which they do not understand).
        Their Merciless GOD had long preordained OTHERS to an eternal hell, just because of their dress code.
        You preordained me as a madman? Do you know me?

  • Soldier

    Hi, i am a muslim, and i am a man. let’s see if i can describe hijab in man ‘s viewpoints.

    woman are very precious creature. why? becaus this humanity exists because woman existed. woman gave birth to a child, maintaining the human population.

    but, are you people aware how the former people treat woman?

    woman in the past has no value, they are treated like a slave, in many places. you can search google for that.

    and now, islam glorify woman, ask woman to cover her body, so the woman can be safe from the bad guy.

    a man, saw a woman walking alone in a street, exposing most of her body, if a crime happened, who would you blame?

    you would blame the man, because of what he did. but why didn’t you blame the woman, becaus she attracted the man with her clothing.

    so, that’s why islam regulate their women to wear hijab, so the woman and the man can be safe from danger described above.

    a hijab is only a clothing, but it will became a protector if you war it in the right way, combined with your good attitude.

    • devine

      So how comes that there is an extremly high rape rate in countries where almost all women wear a headscarve???
      I am looking forward to your explanation…

      • Botak

        A Pakistani man in Australia had the audacity to say in court that his
        14 year old rape victims had no right to say that they were raped
        because they did not wear hijab.

        and here

        AN Afghan soldier was detained by police after being caught having sex
        with a donkey in southeastern Afghanistan.

        Does the donkey didn’t wear a hijab too??

    • http://al-terity.blogspot.com/ Alterity

      God help you if you go to a public swimming baths. Do you jump on the women you see there?

      • GypsyMacaque

        Not me , I will enjoy this beauty created by God. & make my wife jealous, LOL.

    • Botak

      “so, that’s why Islam regulate their women to wear hijab, so the woman and the man can be safe from danger described above.”

      Woman give birth, they raise and feet us. And that’s what they get, ordered to sacrifice more, so that men don’t need to grow up and learn to control their lust?

      Do you guys actually, love, honor & respect your mothers? Or is this only a phrase?

      • GypsyMacaque

        Yep that is the essence of radical islam, if they don’t comprehend it they blamed, even do bodily harm to you. If they don’t own it, it is haram , punishable by the sharia law. They blame everything on others , they are the pure-bred of mongrel.

    • Leviathan

      Hi. I am a man. Let me describe .44 caliber from man point of view.

      Blackberry Z10 is very precious, because it can make chat.

      If a man walk on the street with blackberry Z10, other bad man attack him to steal z10. So we must blame the bad man for attacking.

      But also we need to blame blackberry because expensive and blame the man attacked because not carrying .44 gun to protect blackberry.

      That s why iPhone and .44 are mandatory, to avoid situation as described above, and Z10 is haram.

    • Equus

      Right, here’s me trying to put your logic into a different kind of situation:

      A diamond, so precious that you put it in a strong-box safe, capable of surviving direct Minutemen nuclear ICBM (okay, thats a hyperbolic, but you get the idea).

      Lets say you leave your home and obviously you cant take that safe with you (obviously, who would take their strong box safe with them every where out of paranoia that they will lose them).

      Then a burglar came. With enough knowledge, supplied with proper equipment, persistence and a wee bit of luck, he can always crack the safe.

      What I’m trying to say is:

      No matter what materials you enclosed your dear female companion(s) in, if the perpetrator are willing, given the opportunity to do so (and probably an intense sexual drive to do so), you cannot protect them.

      Rather them protecting them by implementing ‘unnecessary’ rules, take the opportunity, take the will to do crime. How ?

      Simple (or not so, simple), protection by law enforcer, STRICT implementation of law and finally STRICT incarceration.

    • Equus

      One other thing, you might want to give them real protection.

      Namely, guns, TASER, martial arts, etc.
      You cant fight fire with water anymore, especially when it burns on gasoline vapour. What you need, is a CO2.

  • jakarta

    Hi Dian, I am a moslem too, believer and practicing Islam , insya Allah. Yes, it is true that islamic rule regarding hijab has not been agreed by all of the ulemas due to various interpretations. And yes, no one can force you to wear hijab if you don’t want to, and no one can force you to believe an interpretation if you disagree with it. This apply to every moslems including you. So, you also can’t say that women who cover all of her body and are following something blindly, wrong, or brainwashed because that is how they interpret islam, and that is the way they show their devotion to Allah.

    The major mistake in many moslem women today is that they don’t wear hijab not because they’ve already known varios tafsir nor they observe it, but just because they don’t care about it at all. We know that the first principle of islam is shahadat in which we express our deepest sincerity to accept Quran and Sunnah rules. If you’ve already learnt all the refferences and come to a conclusion that hijab is not obliged, and you completely confident that Allah will recognize your reason, why should you feel offended by those who force you different perspective?

    • DianKuswandini

      Where did you find I MADE a conclusion that hijab is not an obligation? and I DID NOT say that “women who cover all of her body and are following something blindly,
      wrong, or brainwashed because that is how they interpret islam, and
      that is the way they show their devotion to Allah.” –> Fitnah lebih kejam daripada pembunuhan :)
      And there’s nothing wrong with being offended. It’s very humane. It’s something normal. Don’t u get offended yourself in life? :) I’m offended the same way a hijabi gets offended because she’s not respected for her choice to wear hijab :) The same way a football lover is teased for watching men running across the field just for a ball (I’m a football lover btw) :) You know, it could be a big, or a small thing. We’re offended because we’re undervalued for following our choices, especially when someone FORCES his/her religious value to us :) Won’t you get offended when a Christian forces you to eat pork, when you’ve already learnt all the refferences and come to a conclusion that pork is haram? :)

  • Roland

    Sorry to mention it – but this is an old article, formerly found at the blog section (it’s actually from August 2012) and Mr Rajiv at this time had an excellent time quoting from certain web sites. Also what now,, with the new thread which started after the new format of JG, is that he insisted in multiple posts that actually Islamic women are only allowed to look through one eye and that the other one needs to be covered too.

    Now, ‘abelardev’ he quoted very clearly from the Koran – are you ready to do that too?

    • http://www.facebook.com/dewi.thompson.9 Dewi Thompson

      ROland, sorry to bother but since you seem to be an expert on this Rijiv what is he saying in his quote below:

      Rajiv a day ago

      “Wearing the jilbab or the hijab complete with full covering except the eyes are essential for all Muslimin without exception.”

      Is he promoting that all Muslims wear hijab?

      • Roland

        Hi Dewi – actually I saw now that he posted the same web link again a bit further down this thread. Although you need to click on the “Show more Comments” link.

        He explains there in detail about this “One Eye” thing.

        Here’s the link as Rajiv posted it.

        http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html (You’ll find it under the title “Prescribed Methods of Covering”

      • MadWorld

        Rajiv was elaborating better to have one-eyed women than a women blinded by the cover of a cloth in front of her eyes. If women are covered totally, can’t see a damn thing, it is like the blind leading the blind.

        • http://www.facebook.com/dewi.thompson.9 Dewi Thompson

          Ok, I thought, his statement was promoting that ALL muslims wear the hijab becuase that is what his original statement did and still does say. Someone should teach Rijiv about the edit function but then worrying about what Muslims wear must be higher up on his list.

        • Roland

          @MadWorld – as far as I understood Rajiv, he suggests that actually one eye of the woman has to be covered too but the are differences in the way one interprets those ancient words. Certain Islamic scholars suggest just that, others again suggest that both eyes can be free from any cover (while again it can be interpreted even that both eyes need to be veiled for reasons of modesty, display of their devotion and of course not to encourage any men…)

          • http://www.facebook.com/dewi.thompson.9 Dewi Thompson

            Roland, that sure is some kind of good looking women you posted in that picture of yours. 4 women, 4 wives allowed by Muslim law, can we all assume these 4 honeys all belong to you Roland? You sure are generous with the clothing they wear but don’t they get hot?

          • Roland

            @Dewi, I proudly declare to be a monogamist and faithful man to my wife.

            I just think it is terrible how religious indoctrination and interpretation can lead to such as pictured above. The photo BTW is from Afghanistan and I am certain that the women underneath those garments are not happy girls. But what causes this is the religion they are born into and if they would do otherwise … let your imagination work.

          • Roland

            PS – and what is really worrisome is that I have already seen ladies dressed very similar to these four in Indonesia – but only since recently – maybe the last 3 or 4 years (Not in Java though but in West-Sumatra in the countryside…

  • devine

    Because being a good Muslim has nothing to do with wearing or not wearing a hijab…

    • Salahudin Sadono

      I agree here. The same as wearing a good suit don’t automatically makes you a good businessman. But making an effort is always a good thing.

  • tony

    If Quran talks about LGBT, free sex , or drinking alcohol, you will say can be mistranslated, conditional, has metaphoric meaning. But if it talks about war, than you will say it has no other meaning but clear literal dictation. I got it as your constant style.

    • TalkingEid

      If Quran doesn’t talk about internet – why are you posting here? Are you a ‘bad’ Muslim?

    • Voxclara

      @tony, what mistranslated, conditional and has metaphoric meaning? Where did I infer as such in my reply to abelardev? Do you even understand what you read? I don’t know what LGBT is, but assuming the Koran sanctions free sex and alcohol. Are these activities harmful and equally as bad as killing the infidels?

      BTW the Koran sanctions free sex. Just two of the many verses:

      Qur’an (33:50) – “O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her– specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; ” (Note: your right possesses=your slaves)

      Qur’an (33:51) – “You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased”

      In the after life for a Shahid (martyr) there is endless sex and alcohol.
      For example check out Sura 37, take particular note 37:40 onwards.

  • tony

    You have to prove it with related datas to support your accusation.
    I’m reminding.

    • Botak

      Only read read the Jakarta Globe everyday or watch the news. Everyday there are rape cases here in Indonesia.Kids, small kids, woman, teenagers and even grand mothers get raped. This should be enough prove.

      And honestly it doesn’t matter if they wear their headgear or not, it’s the men not able to control their lust. I don’t think wearing a hijab will reduce the rape-cases.

      Human live seems always to be about control. And the most are following the necessaries power games, to gain this control and power over others.

      Woman are precious and deliver more to live than males. They are stronger than us, so we need to control them, so that nobody can see our weaknesses.

      This also counts for woman:

      ” Children are born as giants,
      – However, with every day they awake, a piece of their strength gets lost,
      – We do something that makes them smaller.
      – Children are so long invincibly, until the vicious circle begins.
      – Until they like us adult-dwarfs, finally as small as we big ones are! “

    • Valkyrie1604

      Hello! Hello~! you read the news? I don’t need statistics from ‘devine’ to substantiate his post. Almost every intelligent poster on this board knows that for a fact.

    • Duncan

      I posted info – you just failed to see it
      REPOST

      Rape cases in Pakistan reported by The Express Tribune
      (A Pakistani news paper)

      Note 2 things , the number of children raped and also
      the amount of Islamic officials involved. I chose Pakistan because most women are covered. Please google Pakistan’s
      ‘shame’: Rape cases in 2012 For the full and massive list – here’s a few to give you a flavor

      Political worker accused of raping Hindu girl A 14-year-old Hindu girl, N, was raped allegedly by a local leader of the Pakistan
      Peoples Party (PPP).

      Heinous crime: ‘Child rapist, murderer’ arrested Accused first raped and then strangled the girl. He left her body behind a local school and fled.

      Strange but true: Police register rape case against eight-year-old Mankera police in Bhakkar arrested him for allegedly raping two women.

      Under attack: Journalists threatened for reporting
      rape caseReporter received threatening calls for reporting the rape of a six-year-old girl in Meghwadh colony.

      Abuse: Five-year-old girl allegedly raped The girl
      went missing while she was playing on the street outside her house.

      Raped for seeking justice Cruelty seems to know no
      bounds in our country with even fewer regards given to basic human rights.

      Five peasant girls gang-raped for ‘demanding
      wages’Five peasant girls were gang raped by their employers, because the girls asked them for their wages.

      Police rape — a grave failure The gang-rape case of a
      13-year-old female child victim in Ratta Amral, Rawalpindi, spoke of the baseness of human nature.

      I refer you to the recent report by Konmas detailing 50% of Indonesian children are sexually abused. AKA RAPE

    • Duncan

      @1a79f54fcccbcbfc460051f68470e69e:disqus
      Funny you have gone silent now significant data/evidence is produced
      But as others say, one only has to glance at the daily dose of rapes, sexual assaults, child abuse reported in Indonesia to see the logic of the argument as a protective is deeply flawed. Sexual abuse in Indonesia is rampant, most goes unreported and is tacitly supported by legislation and religion
      In my opinion the only way forward is the universal acceptance of women as 100% equal and the rigid persecution of those who fail to respect a women’s right not to be a sexual object – globally not just here – however we must temper that with freedom.
      On this matter Islam has failed as have other religions

  • Wong Edan

    “but why didn’t you blame the woman, becaus she attracted the man with her clothing.” You idiot. This is why a growing number of people detest your religion – it gives rise to this kind of misogynistic belief…

    • Valkyrie1604

      Nicely said Wong, but I am wondering how you got away with that word. Appropriately used, though.

    • Valkyrie1604

      Nicely said Wong, but I am wondering how you got away with that word. Appropriately used, though.

  • Valkyrie1604

    I agree! It’s very boring!

  • Valkyrie1604

    I’ve yet to read about a rape situation at a nudists colony. Anyone please? Dirty thoughts, dirty minds and finally dirty deeds. It’s all in your head. So, watch the other head that it moves in the correct direction.

  • Valkyrie1604

    I call that false piety. Quite close to hypocrisy.

  • PakLe

    I think that in Indonesia there’s a direct correlation between jilbab-wearing, wealth and education. Wealthier, better educated, and therefore freer-thinking women are less likely to wear a jilbab. Poorer, under-educated women are far more likely to look to religion (and religious ‘scholars’) to tell them what to do, what to think, how to behave, and what to wear. Anyone disagree?

    We could argue all day long about what the book says about it – conservatives will interpret it one way, liberals another. That’s the case with all holy books. And it’s the case that most religions benefit from lower levels of education – critical thought is the enemy of the religion industry.

    • Valkyrie1604

      That’s an argument against a post from ‘purgelies’….”critical thought is the enemy of religion industry.” I’m not so sure I can agree to religion being an industry though. In any case, I support fully what you stated about how inclined the poor and down trodden are towards influence from religious scholars. Fear of being labelled a ‘bad Muslim’ is all they are concerned with.

      I once posted a similar opinion concerning this. What’s the percentage of illiterates in this country? I guess it’s quite substantial. This group will adhere to ANY religious instructions handed down to them from their religious guides. The Pied Piper of Hamelin in some ways?

      • Dirk

        PKS is not an industry? The leaders are seen as holy while becoming very rich through you-know-what.

        • Valkyrie1604

          I get your drift Dirk. Don’t miss out which party the Minister of Religious Affairs is associated with.

      • Dirk

        PKS is not an industry? The leaders are seen as holy while becoming very rich through you-know-what.

  • http://twitter.com/14insa Arief Kurniawan

    wearing hijab is mentioned in Koran. “every women in Islam must wear their hijab until cover their chest.” and Koran is the highest constitution in Islam, like UUD 1945. so, if you just pick a piece of quote from imam or sheikh you know without understand the content (Koran), it’s same with walking in dark road without a lantern. just a stupid idea.

    next, I don’t even believe Imam Syafi’i will write quote like that. Syafi’i is the most strict ulama in their generation, have memorized Koran and a lot of hadits since young. please show which the part of his book he write it. I’ll very happy if you can show it to me.

    and a lot of reason why this article just so stupid. double-standard? please correct your statement and keep looking the world you know, OK?

    • blightyboy

      It would seem that your hijab is well favoured as court apparell. Almost all women caught and prosecuted for corruption appear on trial in their holy masks. It does not seem that the wearer of a hijab is necessarily a good Muslim. In fact a lot of Koran spouting Indonesians are not very nice people. Guess we are all just human.

    • fran

      koran & hadith are different book. so on Zabur and Gospel. Those book are recommended to read in Islam. Dont hate any.

  • Valkyrie1604

    Maybe someone came up with the idea to improve sales? C’mon do some maths here. Multiply the numbers that wear. Good business too!

  • TalkingEid

    “a man, saw a woman walking alone in a street, exposing most of her body, if a crime happened, who would you blame?” – I would blame the man – as would anyone with half a brain.

    • GypsyMacaque

      If the man who saw this half naked women are Non -Sunni-Radicals, he wil enjoy the view, if a sunni-radical saw it, I would say::::
      Who let the (mongrel) dog out !!!!

  • TalkingEid

    DrDez – ‘think before you reply”? They don’t use reason – it is forbidden – might as well try to argue about colors with a blind man.

    • Salahudin Sadono

      yes, it is forbidden by “democracy” and the super-power countries.

  • rustynails

    “we can judge someone is a soldier by his green outfit and his attitude.” Not even close to the truth, most uniformed men in Indonesia are bullies and thugs as evidenced by their daily brutality on Indonesian citizens (and we won’t even mention their murderous activities in Tim Tim or Papua). They may dress as Soldiers but the truth is the vast majority are an insult to the profession of arms.

  • MadWorld

    You are a lucky man Rajiv, that the Prophet still allows women to open one eye. So they can see what kind of hypocrisy (edited) you are.

  • Good,Bad and Ugly

    Is that your logic? You have to convince your ‘women’ to dress properly so that the men will act properly?
    You sound as though you want to take the blame away from the man and blame the women for wanting freedom and liberty.
    Learn civilised ethics and common decency.

    • girl

      Hi, I am a women. and I agree completely that if something like this happen, most of the fault come from the men. But, my good reader, I can’t hope that all of the men could be as nice and educated as you guys toward women. Yet, i can’t control their mind. i can though, to control my clothes to protect myself. I think it was wrong for him to blame women. But in a way, it is quite logical to wear hijab in my opinion.

      • devine

        Don’t see the logic… sorry! It sounds more like sticking your head into the sand…

  • Salahudin Sadono

    I never said that putting a headscarf will automatically make you a better person. Please learn to not putting words into someone’s mouth. If you learned that, come back and we will discuss again.

    • devine

      I made a general statement in this respect and did not put words into your mouth. You have not answered my question…

  • Salahudin Sadono

    You failed to see everything.

  • Salahudin Sadono

    What question?

    • devine

      About the definition of “slutty” outfit…

      • Voxclara

        Slutty outfit: wearing an Islamic headscarf but with very tight body hugging outfit. Seen plenty of this in the mall…

        • Valkyrie1604

          You forgot what they do to their faces. Err…there are some without originals to enable them put their best front forward. I wonder whether that’s haram? You think the Quran ever mentioned about changes made to one’s body?

        • TalkingEid

          Vox – you can also try trawling the internet – I think a few posters here will get a cheap thrill if they search the term “hijab sex” – no doubt though the results will only show ‘not REAL Muslims’.

          • Valkyrie1604

            Eid,, so Tif did not complete his homework. No wonder the PKS are in deep shi*.

          • TalkingEid

            The only ‘homework” those pious Muslims in the PKS do is count their stolen money. No doubt their women are all forced to wear a hijab too – hypocritical thieves.

          • devine

            …while some of them give out expensive gifts to not so covered up girls… :)

          • Valkyrie1604

            Jeez, I forgot to mention that Tif is also from the PKS. Oops! Now the Minister lied to the KPK about knowing/meeting Fat. When questioned by the prosecutors he answered….I forgot!

            SS + Rajiv

            What have you to say about this guy, a minister lying?

          • Salahudin Sadono

            Why ask me? His lies, his sins. lol.

        • Salahudin Sadono

          Yeah..

  • devine

    Well, the statement of “her own will” came from you… see your above post… and I am saying that her decision did not come her own, free will but the choice is pushed onto her… i.e by telling women that they are “slutty” if not wearing this or that…
    ___
    And by the way, no other major religion makes you dress in a certain way day in day out…

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Well they’re hypocrites then. Wearing nun outfit when going to church but wearing bikini when go jogging.

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Well they’re hypocrites then. Wearing nun outfit when going to church but wearing bikini when go jogging.

      • Valkyrie1604

        You were watching someone jogging in a bikini outfit? Now, that’s being honest. I trust you have a good sense of imagination, but, watch the adrenalin flow.

        • Salahudin Sadono

          I’d prefer watching someone swimming in a jogging outfit.

          • GypsyMacaque

            In a matter of taste there is no argument.

          • Valkyrie1604

            Now you’re being silly. Anyway, it’s your preference and a weird one in fact.

      • MadWorld

        Living in EU sinds 1970, never seen joggers in Bikini except in my wildest dream, hohoho.

        • Valkyrie1604

          MW….wet or dry?

          • GypsyMacaque

            I prefer wet. Insya Allah ( it means If God is willing)

        • Salahudin Sadono

          hohoho, merry christmas! Now, why are you reading “Jakarta” globe?

          • MadWorld

            What has christmas to do with it. We are discussing jogging in bikini, and in December it’s winter in EU (except in the southern hemisphere), temperature going zero degrees, then the European started wearing hijab to keep them warm.
            I think you are brain dead by the next discussion.
            Why Am I reading Jakarta Globe,wel, It have A non-Sunni-moslim forum,&, I like to see how Indonesia is progressing?
            To keep my brain posted.

          • Guest

            in love with indonesia? read jakartaglobe from a beautiful town in eu :)

          • Valkyrie1604

            Don’t know about MW, but I read JG for reliable information and at times to enjoy reading foolish postings from people such as you.

          • Guest

            good reason, have spare time to study quran?

  • Salahudin Sadono

    Why did the cavemen only wear minimum outfit centuries ago then…? Please explain…

    • DrDez

      dumb questions don’t deserve sensible answers….. however.
      Well they never used woven material because no one had developed the technology, they never use latex or spandex etc because no one had discovered the elements… and so on
      However, evolution by the time man arrived had furnished the earth with animals with furry skins or strong hides or plants with vines to knot together and trees with big leaves, natural resins to bind them – thus where it was cold man hunted animals and wore the skins in his transition from ape to human, in warmer regions that became grass skirts of thongs (please don’t get over excited)
      In Indonesia people started to cover up only recently, in fact when I first arrived on these shores it was not uncommon to see women working in the fields in their sarongs tied up like shorts… wait for this, with their breast skin showing (OMG) yet nobody worried, and they were not bad people. The arabic dress, referred to as Islamic has been for many a modern development and now it is, as there often being used as a tool of subjugation

    • MadWorld

      Because Muhammad was born outside the cave.

  • Salahudin Sadono

    Why did the cavemen only wear minimum outfit centuries ago then…? Please explain…

  • TalkingEid

    Since when? Other religions posit the idea of free will very strongly Salahudin. That’s why they stress that ‘goodness’ is a matter of individual conscience.

  • TalkingEid

    Since when? Other religions posit the idea of free will very strongly Salahudin. That’s why they stress that ‘goodness’ is a matter of individual conscience.

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Just pick the “other religions” then. They won’t tell you to wear hijab. Simple.

  • TalkingEid

    It’s not missed by non-Muslims Salahudin – and in his birthplace Kemal Attaturk is known as ‘the father of the nation” and is generally acknowledged as a very wise ruler, both in Turkey and the rest of the civilized world. Only those who yearn for some kind of despotic theocracy hate him.

  • TalkingEid

    It’s not missed by non-Muslims Salahudin – and in his birthplace Kemal Attaturk is known as ‘the father of the nation” and is generally acknowledged as a very wise ruler, both in Turkey and the rest of the civilized world. Only those who yearn for some kind of despotic theocracy hate him.

  • TalkingEid

    No point in using reason to discuss irrational beliefs. Include me out.

    • MadWorld

      Make the two of us !

      • http://twitter.com/14insa Arief Kurniawan

        honestly, three of us.

  • TalkingEid

    No point in using reason to discuss irrational beliefs. Include me out.

  • purgelies

    Faith can never replace Critical Thinking.

    “The belief that moral values are the province of faith and that no rational, scientific code of ethics is possible, has had disastrous effects in virtually every sphere of human activity.” — Nathaniel Branden

    Why anyone feels the need for religion remains a mystery to me. Common Sense and critical thinking can produce a code of ethics superior to that produced by religion or faith. As my long life approaches its end, I am happy to say that during my entire adult life I have never deliberately harmed anyone. Hopefully the time will come when the Principles underpinning America’s Unanimous Declaration will be respected and defended by all Humankind. Of all the existing religions I find Islam the most appalling. — Tinsley Grey Sammons (1936 –)

  • blightyboy

    Maybe if more Muslims spent time being nicer human beings and less worrying about interpreting the Koran, the world could be a better place. A lot of poor Indonesians, mostly the ones who can’t read, would certainly be very happy.

  • Valkyrie1604

    Vox….WOW!

  • Valkyrie1604

    MW, I am still trying to understand that jibber-jabber.

  • Valkyrie1604

    You’re going deeper into the abyss of idiocy. Maybe the Prophet disallowed it but God gave men ‘free will.’ Hence the beginning of your Faith.

  • Valkyrie1604

    What do you expect from someone (I’ve posted it a couple of times actually) who’s DUMB?

  • MadWorld

    If I do not have a religion, will you leave me at peace, in what I am wearing, doing, eating,??? I don’t think so, because you area munafik.

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Of course I will find you, and I won’t let you live peacefully. Lol, what a waste of time. You’re not even worth it.

  • MadWorld

    If you wish to go hiding, you can stay at my house in EU.

  • Roland

    Whoaaah, that’s by far the weirdest contribution in regards of the discussion regarding the hijab IMHO – sorry ‘Laviathan’ …

  • Duncan

    of course saying you dont have a religion gets you 5 years in jail or death by the Muslim mob in Indo

  • Valkyrie1604

    Can anyone, honestly tell the gender of these people in the photo?
    Remember the famous Noordin M Top? The guy with a lacerated anus? Well, I believe he got around wearing something close to this.

  • Valkyrie1604

    Can anyone, honestly tell the gender of these people in the photo?
    Remember the famous Noordin M Top? The guy with a lacerated anus? Well, I believe he got around wearing something close to this.

  • Dirk

    Very few Indonesians read the Koran, even in translation. Just for fun, ask an Indonesian Muslim what the Koran says about Jesus.
    “Ngaji” is just sounding out the words without understanding them, basically mantra.

    • Valkyrie1604

      They do acknowledge Jesus as a prophet but with many, many BUTS. Another, they WILL ALWAYS avoid any discussion about Jesus. I wonder why?

      • Muffinman

        Abraham, Moses and Noah are also mentioned in the Koran. It was , after all written some 570 years after the Bible. There are good stories and wise teachings in both scriptures.
        Unfortunately followers of both religious choose to separate and segregate based on pragmatic little stigmas such as head-ware and facial hair.
        The experiences and conversations Dian describes here are quite common place. Recently I have heard references to ‘the Real Islam as practiced in Pakistan’ and it makes me wonder ; How did Pakistan get to become flag bearers for Islam ? Indonesia has more Muslims than any other country in the world. It should be Pakistan taking notes from Indonesia on ‘How to be a better Muslim’ than the other way around.

  • Dirk

    Very few Indonesians read the Koran, even in translation. Just for fun, ask an Indonesian Muslim what the Koran says about Jesus.
    “Ngaji” is just sounding out the words without understanding them, basically mantra.

  • Dirk

    I have noticed several instances of pickpocketing and fraud in Jakarta being committed by women wearing jilbabs, not just in the news but also a friend was victimized on an angkot.

    • devine

      And some sneak out of prison this way…

      • http://www.facebook.com/dewi.thompson.9 Dewi Thompson

        You mean men dressed as women in a hijab, got to be something perverted about that.

        • Valkyrie1604

          Noordin M Top!

  • Dirk

    I have noticed several instances of pickpocketing and fraud in Jakarta being committed by women wearing jilbabs, not just in the news but also a friend was victimized on an angkot.

  • Valkyrie1604

    Where are they? love to join you. :-)

  • Valkyrie1604

    Where are they? love to join you. :-)

  • Valkyrie1604

    Bravo! Bravo! Duncan. Truly enjoyed reading your post (twice)

  • Valkyrie1604

    DON’T start spinning and stick to the thread. You’ve run out of lies. In other words, plain and simple….stop bull[edit].

  • Valkyrie1604

    I agree with you Rajiv. Totally agree with you without ANY reservations because in this country, there are many, many apostates. This is predicating upon what you claim..

  • Valkyrie1604

    You can’t because you’re so dumb.

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Then you are dumber and the two of us can make a good movie.

  • Valkyrie1604

    So, if the Prophet practiced it then why this big hoo-ha over the guy who has eight wives? You like to tell this to MUI?

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Tell that yourself.

  • Valkyrie1604

    I can’t believe it! You’re being honest. Now, are you willing to condemn the FPI and others who are guilty?

    • Salahudin Sadono

      Go ahead condemning them. Or are you only brave on the internet?

  • devine

    Thanks for the link, Roland. Quite some shocking information there…

  • Maliki

    Dear Ms. Dian, I really wish that those unpleasant experiences wouldn’t even discourage u for finding the truth in Islam…Islam taught every moslem to encourage people with wisdom and beatiful preaching (16:125) . I realize how hard to do so, but I believe every moslem would strive their best for this. I hope you wear hijab very soon and spread the beauty of Islam on your own..Wassalaamu’alaikum

    • antifreeze

      Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why God created facial features/ sex organs ( complete with foreskins and clitoral appendages) and even head hair if these things are meant to be hidden or excised? I realize that these edicts are not to be questioned religiously, but then why did he even give us brains to do so?

      • MadWorld

        God give us brain to think ,to adapt & on the right place, Allah sometime give brain on a dystopian place.

    • MadWorld

      Your God is not my God.

    • Tatanka

      Is wearing head covering a symbol of being a good muslim? If so, it is absolutely wrong. Just look at all those PKS officials with all those Islamic garbs they are flaunting and yet they are corrupt to the core. Being a devout person to any religion is a link between that person and his creator. No other person and no clothing article can interfere with that link.

    • DianKuswandini

      Thank you very much, but this is how I spread the beauty of Islam: Islam will be more beautiful with less judgmental people :) Please note that although I’m not a hijabi, I’m initiating the hijab community in Paris, France, where muslim women have lost their fully right to wear hijab.

  • MadWorld

    A discovery channel A Real Blind Date, !

  • Botak

    Some posters here are saying woman should wear hijab to not attract the opposite sex. That this law or rule is made to protect the woman.

    I remember about 10 years ago, when it became compulsory for Junior High school and High school students in Penang / Malaysia to wear hijab, also the pregnancy rate for Junior & Senior High school students went up.

    Wearing a hijab can have the opposite effect to. I see every day at my school here in Indonesia, girls open their hijab and sometimes I’m really shocked how such a sweet looking girl can turn so ugly.
    And also sometimes in my neighborhood there are woman with hijab looking realy attractive and make you realy dream about having sex with them, while without wearing the hijab you could tie them naked to my body and nothing would grow or happen.

    So could please somebody explain to me WHY does woman have to wear hijab?

    Or is this again a power-game to gain and keep control over the woman?

    It’s nice for man to be born as in a Muslim world, but pity the woman who are born in it.

  • Henk

    the veil (hijab) was only worn by the wives of Nabi Muhammad them some privacy, a custom taken from Syria and Iran where upper class women did this for the same reason… It was never meant to be worn by other women, let alone them being forced to wear it…

    Back then the Arabic term for donning the veil (darabat al-hijab) was used interchangeably and synonymously with “becoming Muhammad’s wife”….

    So there…..

  • MadWorld

    Now you are talking sense.

    • Salahudin Sadono

      I’m always talking with sense. Maybe you’re just too (edit) to understand. lol.

  • Salahudin Sadono

    The things that you said might be wrong, might be wrong too. lol.

    • antifreeze

      Salah I admire your energy in rebuttal of the slightest slur on your religious beliefs. But really your willingness to justify things that you obviously religiously feel are ‘no brainers’ tends to indicate that you are on a mission. I’m sure your beliefs make perfect sense and are real enough within your own parameters of world view. So why suffer us fools so gladly? If you think we’re mad simply say so. In terms of debate your hysteria will never change the views of your critics but will rather reinforce the stereotype of a view of you as being religiously fixated, which does you an intellectual disservice. Is it possible that these columns are becoming a noted debating chamber and people like you to argue simply to provoke against any deviation from pure Islamic thought? I’m not against this, in fact the more these things are said in the spirit of free speech the better, but the hours you must devote to these columns indicates more than a passing irritation at the unenlightened. And you well know how your critics would love to be able to label you as insanely idealistically obsessive – why give them the satisfaction?

  • Salahudin Sadono

    What? What really happened? Ooh I’m so eager to know!

  • Salahudin Sadono

    kemal attaturk failed then. lol.

  • Botak

    In favor of Salahudin!

    starting reading the post from the start, I can’t see any insulting in his posts until the point when he needed to defend himself.

    He admitted that he is an conservative Muslim, but he isn’t a radical.

    The most of us here are against the religious intolerance here in Indonesia. But for this we also shouldn’t forget to be tolerant.

    Salahudin didn’t try to force his believe on anyone. He only mentioned his view and what he believes. He didn’t try to prove us wrong and he is only standing up to his believe, what I personal respect. Salahudin got his own believe and his own view of it. From where he got it doesn’t matters , same for me and the rest of us.

    we don’t have to agree with somebodies point and believe system, but at least if we can accept and respect that everyone got his own believe system we are having a great start for religious tolerance.

    And one thing speaks for Salahudin, he didn’t start hiding, he is backing up HIS believe system, compared to Rajiv who always will start hiding when he run out of arguments.

  • devine

    :)

  • Salahudin Sadono

    Yes I do.

    • MadWorld

      Tell me who am I?? for example start with my education, compare it with yours. Then we talk.

      • Salahudin Sadono

        Well… you didn’t graduate from kidergarten… and, umm…

        • GypsyMacaque

          Even the word kidergarten is wrongly written. Look who is talking?

  • http://twitter.com/14insa Arief Kurniawan

    first, correct your statement. before they are caught in operation, they are never wear “holy masks”. you can see Nazaruddin wife photo in the past. is she use a hijab? no. and also the others. but, when they are caught by KPK, why they are using mask simultaneously? why? embarassing, I guess…

    second, don’t you know about sex scandal in church? yeah, we are human, we are never perfect, because God is the only one. wearing hijabs or become a cleric/sister never guarantee us to be a good Muslim/Christian. but, this is not about become good in our religion. this is about following the religion, following the order, and indirectly become good follower in our religion. imagine it: if we don’t obey even a slightly order in religions, how we can say ourselves are “good servant?” I don’t understand about Christianity, but I believe, Jesus will be very sad if their lamb don’t follow His order, their God order. CMIIW.

    and never talk about other religion you don’t believe. this is “our” religion, ant that’s “your” religion. we can live in modern world, open-mind world, freedom world. but, can’t we respect others privacy (in this case: wearing hijab for muslim sisters)? can’t we respect other religions?

  • MadWorld

    You mean it was destined for high society moslem women, now, to day, hijacked by despicable women of the lower class.

  • MadWorld

    Endless sex & ALCOHOL, are you serious? Viagra too?

  • MadWorld

    Here comes Rajiv, Olé

    • TalkingEid

      seems he can ‘read it without being able to read it – halleluiah it’s a miracle!

  • Salahudin Sadono

    I hope you have taken your medicines :)

  • Wayan, PIA

    that is the key point girl that many posters are making, in that rather than taking responsibility for his behavior, the man, whom the holy Qur’an deems superior to women, should be shielded from temptation by hiding away the temptation instead of facing up to it and dealing with it as a civilized human
    Thus you as a women are subjugated for them and not for any noble reason or for reasons of faith. The mere fact you feel the want to post demonstrates just how deep the inequality and indoctrination runs
    Wayan

  • Dunc

    nothing to do with the Cypriot issues them?

  • http://twitter.com/sherrydear gejag

    Hypocrits

  • Kay

    So how about you Dian Kuswandini, what is your reason for not putting the veil on? Well i believe you already know the main rule of covering yourself, even men should do the same.

    Instead you ask why some women dont wear it, ask why many intrllectual women do wear it?

    Salam

    • Tatanka

      And why some intelligent women choose not to wear head covering? That is the question.

    • DianKuswandini

      sorry, but I didn’t ask why some Muslim don’t wear hijab. The title of this writing wasn’t come from me :) My original title is: “The ‘I’m More Muslim Than You Syndrome’” :)

  • Darren1

    Hmm… Reminds me of the following in the Bible: “However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” (Leviticus 25:44-46)

    Or this… “As you approach a town to attack it, first offer
    its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may
    keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.” (Deuteronomy
    20:10-14)

  • Equus

    To be or not to be, that is the question. To wear hijab or not to wear, is a matter of personal choice, well at least in my opinion that is. Some Muslim women, including several friends of mine, chose not to because they think they are not ‘Muslim enough’ to wear one. They need several years to decide to wear one eventually. Some others chose not to, for no particular reason, but that does not mean that they didn’t practice their religious belief.

    Again, i’d like to point out that wearing hijab does not mean you’ll be instantly enter heaven when you cross over to the after life. If so, then everybody would wear one now won’t they ? Practicing religion vigorously also won’t ensure your ticket to heaven. If you do it because you are afraid of hell or not accepted to heaven then what you’ve did is nothing but a waste.

    I don’t think that the Great Architect (Allah/God/Yahweh/or whatever you want to call it) is not that superficial and wouldn’t sentence you to hell instantly just because you’re not a Muslim; or you’re not a devout Christian; or some-other-religion-with-the-dual-concept-of-hell-and-heaven (without proper trial, at least). The Great Architect is universal and transcend any religion mankind love to devise.

    Religion is man-made, equipped with man-made flaws. As long as there is no internet connection, facsimile, telephone line or postal services between His office and this particular world, to deliver His true words, i don’t think mankind can one-sidedly judge that those who are not wearing hijab is damned to the pits of hell.

    • http://dudeinindo.wix.com/beerz#! Muffinman

      @Equss. Do you mean the ‘fiery pits of hell’ or ‘pits from dates and prunes’ spat out on the floor of hell ?

      • Equus

        Well, to tell you the truth i don’t think hell is fiery or filled with agony and torture. Hell, in my understanding, is a place where everything you need is available, however, no matter how great your effort is, you will not (ever) get what you need the most.

        But in this case, yes it is the fiery pits of hell, i suppose.

        • GypsyMacaque

          I prefer hell, you can meet, Marilyn Monroe,George harrison, while in heaven are full of upgraded terrorist.

  • Muffinman

    I like the one in green. Obviously an environmentalist. She’s hot !

  • Rajiv

    WebEd, I am re posting the below for the 2nd time, why was it is not published?

    What Aisha the Ummul Mu’minin (the mother of all believers) the beloved wife of our holy Prophet SAW said regarding the use of a face veil?

    Hadith : Bukhari # 282
    Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba:`Aisha used to say: “When (the Verse): “They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms,” was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.”

    Tafseer – Ibn Katheer
    “Allah commanded the muslim women to cover this sheet on top of them to cover their bodies except one eye, when it is necessary for them to come out of their homes.”

    It is mandatory for all Muslimahs to cover up from head to toe even their faces as Aisha the mother of all believers herself observed and no doubt covered up. It is the command of Allah SWT.

    Some posters accuse me of hiding when I can’t come up with any answers. PROVE IT ! However I see no point in responding to insults.

    Others say I post my interpretation. It is not my interpretation but that of the Islamic scholars. If the Noble Qu’ran says you should cover up, if the Hadith clearly says you should cover up, if the most beloved wife of our holy Prophet SAW, Aisha the mother of all believers observed that Muslimahs covered up, then as a good Muslimah you have no choice but to cover up as instructed.

    • devine

      “The Prophet married ‘Aisha before she had reached puberty
      and consummated the marriage when she was approximately 9 years old..” Hardly a chance to choose by herself at the ago of 9?! Beside that, since modern times people that “consumate” 9year olds are called phedophiles and go to jail…

      • Rajiv

        Ms devine, what’s Aisha’s age got to do with her observation of the face veil ? Aren’t you trying to be insulting? I know, you profess to be Christian the follower of Jesus son of Mary. Is this how you are taught to behave by your religion?

        • devine

          This whole threat is about if women are free or not to choose to wear a vail. Trying to be insulting? In what way? By stating facts?

          You know that I am a Christian? How would you know?

          ___

          What I am saying is, that certain things are different today, i.e. that you are a phedophile if you have sex with underage people and hence a criminal nowadays. Same if you keep slaves as the holy Prophet SAW did. I hope you agree on that… !?

          If we fully follow what the holy Prophet SAW said (as you propose), would it then not be normal to have sex with underaged and holding slaves?

          And if not, why is it then that we MUST follow some things what the holy Prophet SAW said (i.e. veil) and other things not…???

          • Valkyrie1604

            Precisely what I am thinking. (beat me to that) Ahem! Then they should not be issuing an edict against that guy “Subur” with 7 wives?
            Etc., etc., etc.,

          • MadWorld

            8 or 7, does it matter, the older wives sit on the advisory board, the younger one got the fun.

          • Valkyrie1604

            To me it does not, but they are going to gun that guy down.

          • Tatanka

            Good argument and logical.

      • semak pagar

        im a moslem and it is clear that the story Aisha is 9 is silly story, eveen you can find that possibly aisha is 34yrs old, real islam is not based on this stories, it is the Quran all should be based

        • TalkingEid

          tut tut – saying the Holy Qur’an is not all literally correct? Better watch out………

          • semak pagar

            i do not care you believe quran or not talkingeid, you can choose quran or choose the silly story, but it is clear here that you believe the silly story and it means you in reality is a sunni religion practicionerhaha

          • devine

            If you dont agree better start arguing with Rajiv…

          • MadWorld

            Are you suggesting to start a Holy war?

          • semak pagar

            devine, you believe the story of ayesha age? how can you believe that? if you are really a curious systematic human who uses brain you will got that the story is contradicting each other and no conclusion can be drawn. Fyi, Quran didnt say any wordsabout ayesha age. The sunni and other religion use these story for fifferent objectives; one wanted to have legal sex with children, other use it to insult muhammad, in this case you and sunni are in the same side: believer of the bukhary silly stories, in Quran you and your sunni friend are categorizedas people who do not use his/her intelegent and can fool themselves. In Quran,believing something without test and investigationbring us to failure.

          • TalkingEid

            semak – better brush up your English skills – I didn’t refer3 to a ‘silly story’ – unless you think that’s what the quran is – in which case you should talk to Rajiv.

        • GypsyMacaque

          Ck ck ck, how dare you to challenge the Holy of the holiest book on this planet Earth.

    • http://dudeinindo.wix.com/beerz#! Muffinman

      Rajiv, I think you sum it up pretty well ; ‘As a good Muslimah you have no choice….’

    • GypsyMacaque

      FYI Rajiv, Cindy Storer, & Nada Bakos do you know who they are?
      I don’t think so.
      They are both women , yes dear Rajiv, women who lead to the capture and the death of Osama bin laden.

    • semak pagar

      rajiv, how come you declare yourself a moslem and believe the silly stories collected and categorizEd by bukhary? why not you follow the quran alone? if you follow the quran alone then youll get it that quran didnt say anythibg about a rigid dress code for everyone

  • Chemink

    i wanna put this article on my blog, I believe in islam/moslem, i believe in Allah and i pray but i am not wearing hijab/veil, probably someday. But the main point is We just need to be a good person and live our life in a positive way. No matter what your religion is.

  • Hooswho

    I have made a conscious decision not to wear a hijab – it makes my beard itch

    My wife has reached the same conclusion – it makes her beard itch too!!

  • Darren1

    Checked it – nothing about sex or virgins. 37:40 says “But not the chosen servants of Allah” 37:41 and :42 mention fruits, not virgins.

    In 33:50 and :51 – ” (50) Thou canst defer whom thou wilt of them and receive unto thee whom thou wilt, and whomsoever thou desirest of those whom thou hast set aside (temporarily), it is no sin for thee (to receive her again); that is better; that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be
    pleased with what thou givest them. Allah knoweth what is in your hearts (O men), and Allah is ever Forgiving, Clement. (51) It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth, nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is ever Watcher over all things.”

    Nothing about free sex, says cannot take other wives, and that wives should be happy ‘ “that they may be comforted and not grieve, and may all be pleased…”

  • lost.in.translation

    covering women up doesn’t protect them or prevent them from being a rape target. if the dirty mind is there, we’re still not protecting them from anything

  • Valkyrie1604

    They are known as “Ibrahim” “Musa” and “Nuh”. Jesus was referred to as “Isa”. You will note that the Holy Bible both OT and NT were written long before the Koran. As I remember, Islam of old forbid any translations of their scriptures. No other language except Arabic. I believe you are able to outsource translations now but to my knowledge that is actually forbidden. Perhaps someone knowledgeable can confirm this?

    Current day Christians often use the RSV. The Saint James version of the Old Testament are used for references.

    It is totally impossible to follow what’s written in the OT. I am no Bible scholar but I do have the presence of mind to choose what’s appropriate for our time.

    I enjoyed stories about Noah during my childhood days. All pairs of animals including the swine.

  • Valkyrie1604

    I’ve seen them in Singapore too! Not too many though.

  • TalkingEid

    slipping into a coma now…………….

  • MadWorld

    Taliban style Miss World Pageant.
    To prevent the jury to become horny.

  • MadWorld

    You mean freedom of religion?

    Mind your own business !

    But why are the MUI,FPI,HTI,FUI,Garis,Kisdi,DDII,GPMI,JAT, to name just a few start prosecuting/proselytizing other beliefs?

  • TGIF

    Let’s change the subject to certain animals approved by the Muslims faith for example cats as the preferred domestic animal. People have said that the Muslim Prophet loved cats therefore dogs are frowned upon today in certain Muslim countries. Dogs are cleaner than cats. Cats would actually spread more diseases if not taken care of. Dogs interact well with human beings. However, this capital needs to curb the cat population.

    The hijab is a personal choice, wearing certain religious garb or symbols won’t make anyone pious nor humble. If one has a rotten heart to the core, the exterior image may be deceiving no matter how one would conceal it’s appearance.

    • semak pagar

      how come people based the moslem teaching to silly stories made 200-300yrs after Muhammad dead? ie. dog and cat, Quran never said anything about cat but said about the some moslem men run from persecution of niceane early christian trinity persecution, they slept in the cave for 300 plus 9 years with their dog, so the moslem/righteous really have dogs in their life, it a common thing. and also how come people believe the contradictive verse by verse of present bible?

  • TypicalJoe

    Why don’t some Muslim women not wear hijab? Pretty simple. Because some of them choose not to.

  • beni

    Congratulations.Very nicely composed.

  • TGIF

    Because they all believe that Jesus was a Jew. Well no need to elaborate because it would be hard to explain logically to those who read the koran and follow the Islamic faith.

  • TGIF

    Valkyrie…Some do acknowledge Jesus but it is just one of many prophets for them. It may also be a translation problem just like some passages in any religious text. Jesus as interpreted by the Christians as the son of God may just be a misunderstanding for them that has spread like wildfires across centuries. Well think about it.

    • Valkyrie1604

      Thinking…….

      They all acknowledge, not some, but Jesus is always left out in their sermons or scriptural quotes. I have not paid much attention to what was written in the Quran about Jesus. One thing I know is that Muslims deny that it was Jesus on the cross, crucified and developments thereafter. They claim that it was someone else instead. History has recorded this event. They still continue to deny the fact. Hence, the reason I said that they do not like to have a discussion on Jesus. I can go on, but, I cannot see it doing any good. It’s leading the horse to water once again.

      • TGIF

        Now that’s news to me that SOME Muslims would actually deny that Jesus was crucified. Perhaps the hard core radical Muslims believe in it…If it comes down to that. Well who knows what really happened, the translation has been lost through the centuries and some others have taken pride in distorting history or religious fairy tales.

  • Valkyrie1604

    MW, actually must recommend him to watch the movie or maybe read about it. And yes, Rajiv should know that they found porn movies in his possession (lots of them).
    I salute the women. Rajiv? No, I don’t think you would.

  • blablabla

    Hijab is a must if you life in a dessert like in middle east with high temperature on day light and low temperature in the evening, and also the low humidity. Hijab protects your body against the sun heat & sands. But if you wear hijab in tropical climate such as Indonesia, personally I don’t think it is suitable.

    Not on on geographical aspect but also cultural aspect, the way Arabians perceived woman’s body are different with Indonesians. We are used to see women walking around in sarong or kain.

    But its all up to individual decision to wear hijab or not, the most important thing is not to force opinions to others.

    Peace!

    • TGIF

      Right on track…

    • Tyrone Beiron

      Yes, the actual hadith on the covering of the prophet’s wives in his court were inside the tent and not outside in the open, where it was part of their protective wear. The prophet himself never received a surah from Allah specifically on this ruling and thus, it was intended as a rule by the prophet as earthly leader and not divine. Also, the use of the covering indoors in court was intended to identify the women “who were already spoken for”, and in this specific case, his wives, not for all other women. The reason was simply because the other tribal leaders were afraid to cast glances on the prophet’s wives and offend him accidentally. This is the correct historical basis for matriarchs in court being covered in early Islamic society, and was not mandated by God in any of the original surahs.

      • Valkyrie1604

        Quite a revelation! So, it’s man made then?

        • MadWorld

          ALL religions are man made?
          I do not think God love trivialities, if He/She exist.

          • Valkyrie1604

            With respect, and sorry, I can not argue with you if you do not believe.
            My reference to “man made” was to the wearing of a veil. Apples and pears are fruits, but different.

        • Tyrone Beiron

          If you are an atheist, then see (MadWorld) below. The sura Al-Noor 24 v30-31 mandates modesty for both men and women as a virtue. Islamic Scholar Ibne Saad (first century after the prophet) explained sura Al-Ahzab 33 v57-59 that believing women in times of insecurity could be better recognised and not accosted by unknown men in the open area by drawing their jilbab (outer garment, not covering head/face) close to their body. This is not to be confused with the Arabic word khimar used in 24 v31 which is a head covering for the prophet’s wives indoors, who were mandated to approach him in court behind a veil (or screen), because they were perceived to be “unlike other women”. What Islamic fundamentalists are doing is taking the ruling in 24 v31 and applying outdoors and to all women, which is nothing like what the sura says, and authoritative Islamic commentators of the first century after the prophet say. Interestingly, the sura refers to the men who falsely demand modesty of believing women because of their own weakness as “hypocrites” and are severely admonished by the Lord Himself (go read for yourselves). So, in fact, these teachers on the widespread use of the khimar or hijab (not the jilbab, an outer coat) are infact exposing themselves as such.

          • GypsyMacaque

            &Valkyrie 1604.
            There are thousand of books written on the subject, the origin of religion & the existence of God.
            In searching of immortality our mind created God, wether one God,or multiplicity of Goddesses. The creation of G,followed by extremism, your belief is not mine, your belief is branded as sin/haram,it could ensued a death sentence.(Christian did it with Inquisition & the Holy war).
            In modern time in theocratic countries, G is politicized , and we act as a tribe, the sunni tribe, the catholic tribe in Ireland.
            In searching of a place for the immortal soul, post earthly,religion creates heaven, is heaven an actual place? Or does it exist in our mind? Supposedly heaven do exist, how many bewildering type of heaven are above us. Muhammed created its own heaven for his followers, and you should now from now on, YOU can not enter Muhammad’s heaven. Not to speak about, christian, hindu heavens. In the new testament heaven is referred to as The Kingdom of Heaven. The early christian were yew,but they don’t believe of life after death. They do believe in resurrection,Jesus was resurrected from the death, no? There is a website, I am serious, offering services for those who are left behind by their loved one, for subscriber only, fee 40 US$/m or y? Just in case you want to leave a message. ;www.youvebeenleftbehind.com , I dare not try.
            There are variety of Hell to choose from,every religion created it’s own conceptual Hell.
            Look at the world around you, millions of wretched poor dying because of hunger, genital mutilation in Sudan just to name a country,war& violence in the Middle East, rapes in Pakistan.Hell on Earth !
            Where are these people going when they died? They already been in Hell.
            I wanna get out of this religion created place, I am born to be free, NOT ATHEIST.
            I don’t live in 1984 of George Orwell. BIG BROTHER is watching you, go to room 101.Confess your sin. Do I go to Hell for being a heathen. Could I choose ?

          • Valkyrie1604

            Tyrone, I responded. Apparently the usual glitch but I said……I am a Methodist.
            and, on the lighter side….Athesim is a non prophet org.

  • Helena Mahathir

    Apa yang haram itu tetap haram, jangan menghalalkan sesuatu just to suit your own needs and preferences, that’s just ridiculous, and this writer is ridiculous for writing such an article. When in doubt, just refer to the Quran, all the answers are there. It clearly states that covering the “aurat” is wajib ( a must) in Islam, there is no argument there. That doesn’t mean that all women who don’t wear hijab are “bad”, and it also doesn’t mean that all women who do wear hijab are “good. Remember, the rules in Islam have been set, BUT it is up to us whether we want to follow them or not. Dosa tanggung sendiri – tidak usah diheboh-hebohkan. Don’t be proud for choosing not to wear a hijab when you know that you are breaking the rules of Islam. And women who wear hijab also need not be proud – you do it because it is wajib, not to show off to other people that you are good and pure, because the only rightful judge is Allah.

    • TalkingEid

      deep sleep…………………….

      • Valkyrie1604

        Eid, they say count sheep to help but I talk to the Shepherd.

        • TalkingEid

          You get more sense from real sheep than from the human sheep blindly following what they ‘know’ to be right.

        • GypsyMacaque

          You mean black sheep.

    • Rajiv

      Excellent comment HM, [BUT it is up to us whether we want to follow them or not. Dosa tanggung sendiri - tidak usah diheboh-hebohkan. Don't be proud for choosing not to wear a hijab when you know that you are breaking the rules of Islam]

      Emang bener, dosa tanggung sendiri. Kalo yg haraam tetap haraam, kalo ikut yg haraam, lama kelamaan menjadi murtad. Sepatutnya harus ikut semua ajaran didalam Al Quran, gak boleh milih2 utk sesuaikan penhidupan sendiri, itu bukan Islam.

    • weilung

      Absolutely correct, Helena. That’s the point. You are responsible for your own choice and your own sins, but let the rule goes that way. Don’t try to set it to meet your preferences…

    • hruni a

      nice but the choice is disappearing fast

  • semak pagar

    saya kira alQuran menyatakan tentang ‘pakaian yg pantas/tidak aneh, merangsang dan menarik perhatian’ dan bukan menyatakannya dalam suatu bentuk pakaian yg kaku dan mengekang shg perempuan kehilangan identitasnya. decent

  • Valkyrie1604

    Maurice, he can’t! Intellect and honesty isn’t in his vocabulary.

  • Rajiv

    Ms devine, the question of this topic is whether a Muslimah should or shouldn’t wear the full hijab including the face veil. Please try to stick to the topic. If you can’t contribute to the discussion and keep insisting on writing insults, then it says a whole lot more about you and your religion which is Christianity. Yes, in one of your comment, you admitted being the follower of the man Jesus the son of Mary. Unless you would rather deny it now, in which case you are prone to fibbing at best?

    • Tatanka

      As a good muslim as you would like to portray yourself to be, please don’t lie!

  • http://www.facebook.com/ifortland Hana Al

    Dear sist, I’d like to comment as well about your article.
    We can’t deny the fact that male and female are very different being. while you, sist, think its just alright not to wear hijab even if you judge your attire’s decent enough, our brother have a different view about you.
    Do you know that its enough just by seeing your bare foot or maybe your foot finger, for them to see through your calves and thigh? That’s the nature of our brother. Males have been given something that females doesn’t have : ability to imagine “things” (they’re great at imagining your body shape).
    Do you know why? You must know if we get menstruation for the sign of adulthood then they get a different thing called “wet dream”? Do you know what that dream about is?
    There she is, my mentor in senior high school, that have asked his male friend about that dream. He said ,”I dream about a girl, fully-naked, but I can’t see her face clearly”. That is to believe, that the girl in every man’s dream is their destinied-mate, but whatever. The fact is every man even the most solitude man being who always live secluded or the one that always keep their eyes down for non-muhrimi, at least once have seen how’s the shape of female body. Just so you know, I’m shocked, really.
    I think that’s why there’s an order for us girls, to wear hijab because you wouldn’t know what is the males really view about us.
    If you really curious about what I have stated above, try to ask your male friend? Private okay, literally, that’s a taboo thing to blurt it in front of girl’s face. ^^

    • TalkingEid

      You seem obsessed with sex and nudity – I suggest therapy.

    • Hazel

      Of course males are visually-enhanced creatures that every interesting sight would provoke them, especially perhaps the one between their thighs. But I personally think that this thought of yours have been simply degrading them as low as lustful brainless animals. Do you really think that men would go all wild and rape women who show their skins, even naked? I don’t think so. They are human. Raised by their human parents and therefore been taught well about morals and consequences. Come on, wake up. They might have boner, but that boner doesn’t go straight controlling their minds & actions.

      You really need to wake up from the false nightmare the elder men have been brainwashing you, darling.

    • Squidsushi

      Also, do you think by not wearing hijab, then you can see a woman naked? Which planet are you living on?

    • Valkyrie1604

      Can you honestly tell me that women do not have similar thoughts?

    • loo

      this kind of thinking that actually evokes rape culture even more..how ironic, telling a woman to cover up but no telling men, not even just once to control their behaviour? shame on you

  • Valkyrie1604

    Do you mind providing a translation for the benefit of those who might look at your post and thinking….”that’s Greek to me.”

  • semak pagar

    how come people based moslem teaching to silly story made 200-300yrs after Muhammad dead? ie. dog and cat, Quran never said anything about cat but said about the some moslem men run from persecution of nicene early trinity persecution, they slept in the cave for 300 plus 9 years with their dog, so the moslem really have dogs in their life. How come people also believe the cobtradictive verse by verse of present bible?
    and also why always thing about papua always atract the rational westerner becone itchy while they have never been there?oh theyve been there, before 63

  • devine

    What insults?… I copy pasted the text from the website you quoted earlier! So if you refer to contents of that website it is ok, but if I do it is insult? And as to my comment admitting that I am Christian… please provide the link since i never made such a statement. Seems you get very confused…

    • TalkingEid

      Rajiv exists in some fantasy world. If the truth doesn’t suit him, he makes things up.

  • Tyrone Beiron

    In the first place, according to the Hadith (prophetic traditions, and this comes from the ones dictated by Aisha), it was from a scene when the other tribal heads in the prophet’s court were uneasy looking upon his wives, and beseeched him to have them covered from their gaze to avoid offending him. As there was so surah from Allah in response to this request, the prophet responded as he would a tribal leader, and not as spiritual leader, giving in to these men’s requests, out of their weakness and not because the prophet wanted to assert his dignity. Hence, the hijab was intended only for covering those “women who were already spoken for”. Traditionally, in Malay and Indonesian societies, it is the married women (matriarchs) who wore the folk head scarves not the unmarried girls. So, the story of the “candy” is a deliberate aberration of Islamic tradition. This is the sad truth about how much misinformation is being passed on by word of mouth in Islamic schools following scholarship of one sort to subjugate one group and oppress others. Similarly, “blasphemy” is strictly an offense against God, alone. So, anything else against the prophet or any scripture cannot be “blasphemy” but serious sin. To elevate these two to the same level as God would be idolatry, but this is exactly what is happening in those Islamic societies where fundamentalism is gaining control over the community, and this is un-Islamic. Peace be upon you all.

  • http://twitter.com/hutami12 Coffee&Me

    Hijab in Indonesia is kind of a new thing! never seen any muslim girl or woman wearing a hijab when I was a kid. Older women made their hair in konde and wore “kain/kemben” and young girls wore a regular dress or skirt & blouse. Sadly, now days more muslim women are becoming “kearab-araban” for no reason or wrong reasons.

  • Botak

    I only try to imagine what Indonesia would be like, if it’s under Sharia Law. Woman are all full covered, Non Sunni all converted or killed….

    A full copy of Saudi? – No never.

    Who is going to serve us at the shops, in the government departments, teach in schools, work at the banks, in the factories, on the rice-fields. ?

    In my various trips to Arab countries I never saw local woman doing these jobs. They aren’t allowed to work. Also the Arab countries are operated by thousands of foreign workers. which is OK because they’ve got the money, but what about Indonesia? Does they have the money to import foreign workers?

    Are the Wahhabi here able to work or only capable of playing religious police? Every day when I pass here in Medan the Mosque known as the place of worship for the hardcore & Radical Muslims I see a lot of them hanging around there, but I never see one of them working. Also in my neighborhood, I see a lot of this hardcore Muslims, but I never see any one of them working. I only see them every day running around and spreading the words…

    Looks like that Indonesia is going to be a typical Example of George Orwell Novel “Animal Farm”, only different the leaders aren’t Halal

  • MadWorld

    Make up your mind girl.
    Wear what you like, if, it makes you happy.
    Do not judge other women who wants no cover on the face.

  • TalkingEid

    no – that’s the answer – because they are intelligent.

  • Valkyrie1604

    Rubbish! I have not seen ‘devine” ever making such a statement. I have, and I think you’re the one “fibbing.”

  • Voxclara

    Even the Islamist in Chief, B Hussain Obama got into the act. To wear or not to wear the ghostly looking hijab or niqab according to Egypt’s al Hazar university, the highest learning of Sunni Islam in the world.
    Quote:
    [The administration understands the wearing of the hijab as a religious injunction for all Muslims. This is not the case, as senior theologians have decreed, including al Azhar, and the niqab is not a universal Muslim obligation, as one can see in 53 Muslim-majority countries. It is a matter of choice. The organized groups calling for a systematic imposition of the niqab are Islamist forces. This translates politically into an official endorsement on the Obama administration's part of the Islamist political agenda under the camouflage of religious rights.]

    Read more: Family Security Matters http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/us-administration-wrongly-advocates-the-islamist-interpretation-of-islamophobia#ixzz2U4hOq4fv
    Under Creative Commons License: Attribution

    • TalkingEid

      But Rajiv knows better, Vox!

      • Voxclara

        TE, probably…. Just wondering why the Obama administration supports Islamism to the detriment of the US and its people. Very strange…

        • Tatanka

          Much too often Americans bend over backward in order to portray themselves as tolerant and respectful toward minorities. Case in point is that many Americans cannot apply for certain jobs in some states, including Florida, because the application form is written in Spanish. They say it is to be respectful to the large population of Spanish-speaking people in the area. Some Muslims wanted to build an Islamic Center at the site of 911 in New York and many non-Muslims actually support that lunatic idea too.

        • Valkyrie1604

          I think this platonic affair will continue as long as the black gold can flow in and that the US need not suck it from their stockpile.

          Are you able to believe that every person in the US of A loves the Arabs? Who can forget 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. How many in this country continue to bear hatred towards the Dutch etc., etc.,?

          I have one word for it…Politics..

  • semak pagar

    talkingeid, i refer haditsas silly story, quran is not a silly story, there is no info from quran about aisha age and there are a lot paradoxal trivial quadrivial info abouther age from hadits,your defend is based on that stories and it means you are a sunni practicioner,it is just simplelike that mr talkingeid actually a sunni emamby his opinion

  • devine

    Rajiv… gone into hiding again? Why dont you answer…? Found out that you are wrong?

    • Rajiv

      I have nothing to fear from kafir like you. Unlike you I do work with many responsibilities, I don’t have much time to post silly nonsense as you do day in day out. You a follower of Jesus the son of Mary seems to be free most the time. Your comments are everywhere. You don’t work do you. Either rich or unemployed.

      • devine

        Hahahaha… running out of arguments so resort to insults… ? You got it all wrong…

    • semak pagar

      i think you and rajiv stand on the same side, believer of the silly story from people like bukhary who wrote silly story hundreds years after muhammad death. Rajiv uses the story to put his favor in religion(and contradict with what can be learnt from quran) and you Devine, you use the story to insult Muhammad. Both you are categorized as non appreciative people in Quran. This lifes only a test and only who have mind can understand God messages in Quran.

      • devine

        This dialogue is about hijab. I am not aware that I have in any way insulted Muhammad. That would certainly not be my intention. Of course now you come and claim to know the only truth. And so claims Rajiv. While I am saying that the hijab is not part of our Indonesian culture and has only appeard recently. But since it is obviously an other taboo theme I just think my things and stop posting on this issue. No wonder Muslims are killing each other all around the world…

  • semak pagar

    of course this dialogue is about hijab and indeed it is not part of your indonesian culture, i really can see it, crystal clear. I just remind you about the out of topic dialog about ayesha age, looks like you have put it below. I suggest you, before you take a silly stories and this also for rajiv, you both pls use your logic, intllgn and brain. The silly stories of hadits are destroying all true quranic teaching, ie. in the sunni side they use it to legalize what they like while at the other side,by beliving the stories, they use it to ridicule moslem. Now you can see that both of them are believer of the silly hadits, and you can see yourself at what side you are. You got me? I just feel itchy to see lot of rational westerner here when facing reality of sunni or other sects of twisted religion become irrational and lost their objective approaches.

  • semak pagar

    in this earthly life, i have seen people get twisted from the true messages of God. People get twisted by the deity of jesus, also get the wrong way on the muhammads power for giving ‘safaat’. Both of them in the day of resurrection will say against the teaching, Jesus will say he didnt teach them that he is God, Muhammad will say to his Lord that his people has deserted the Quran. Thats it, and because Devine do not want any further discussion, I hope my comment is the last comment on this page ok?

    • Voxclara

      Read my reply on the contradictions within your scriptures above. On the one hand it upholds the truth of the Torah and the Bible. Then on the other it says both had been corrupted.

      Remember your scriptures revelation if it can be called that came much later then both the Torah and Bible. It also borrowed then twisted many events from both the Jewish and the Christian scriptures.

      • semak pagar

        i didnt find your reply about contradiction, torah(scriptures sent down to jewish prophets before jesus)and injeel(scripture sent down to jesus) yes we recognize it then whats the matter? using your brain you can see lot of contradiction in present bible.
        You know jew is special in quran? because lot of verses telling about them, their succes and failures, also moses is mentioned in 136 verses ! and also there is a clear restriction for them not to eat some kind of meat, imagine! the quran is not only to moslem but also specific to the jews and all human. This book also reform some jewish law, do you know punishment for adultrer in jew/semitic law? its a capital punishment by throwin rock as you can see in magdalene story, do you know quran change that law? quran canceled that barbaric law. many thing i can say to you but if you donot have open mind and intllgnc then it will have no impact to you.

  • hruni a

    @ca23b558e26f9b9f5d59c37dc8cb9d84:disqus
    Lots of ref to the girl being a child, and his niece and that he beat her – if we cannot believe that what else can we not believe? Selective Islam?
    As for only the Qu’ran is ‘lore’ – what about when it contradicts itself ? NO need to explain if you are knowledgeable you will know the common verses open to various interpretion by the brothers depending on if they want violence or peace

    why no post reply JG?? you post rajivs long copy paste from koran verses but not mine

    Maybe 22 is right

    • semak pagar

      you cannot draw conclusion from trivial infos, that what i can say tiredly after studying the refs you said a lot out there.

      • Wong Edan

        Glad to see you calling parts of the Koran “trivial Infos”

  • hruni a

    If you have nothing to fear why do you always spout Islamic dominance propoganda??

  • Alex Brehm

    Women, non wearing hijab are burned in hell? Better burn stupid fundamentalists in hell.
    so peace and tolerance will win instead of terror and murder.

    • semak pagar

      alex, nothing said in the scripture of moslem that women non wearing hijab will be burnt in hell. pls also brush up your english like what talkingeid said to me, are you talking present tense or future condition?

      • MadWorld

        Are you an english teacher?

        • TalkingEid

          Gibberish teacher, maybe.

  • semak pagar

    @hruni
    put for me here more then one verses in Quran that contradict each other(must be more then one to have contradiction)
    it must be quran verse to verse, dont contradict quran verse with silly sunni/syiah/salafi/ahmadyah/wahabian/talibanian teaching and stories, it is indeed contradictive.

    • devine

      “silly sunni/syiah/salafi/ahmadyah/wahabian/talibanian teaching”… oops… no insult here…. right?

      • semak pagar

        devine, i know you didnt insult Muhammad, even if you do so i donot really care because muhammad is not the focus of the this true religion based on quran, muhammad hesu moses abraham joseph and other are just messenger and they are dead, they are not omnipotent, they are in their grave.God is the omnipotent, that are things you can see as differences between true moslem with sunni syii ahmadi talibanian salafian etc many of them has been used by you as moslem examples, and they are wrong examples. To satisfy yourself, you make your brain believe their silly stories about muhammad so in that way you are in the same sidw with them, you got it? you can start learn the Quran from now because Quran is for everybody.

        • hruni a

          because muhammad is not the focus of the this true religion based on quran…… WOWSSSSAA

          then why do muslims keep killing people at every perceived insult to Mo.??

          • semak pagar

            ask them why, im not a member of them. I gave you answer: because they do not understand the Quran and they use other sources for their religion. Now i realize that you and others have passion only to fight me without understanding what im tryin to convey

          • Valkyrie1604

            Try improving your sense of direction then.

        • Valkyrie1604

          Who is “hesu”? Your religion is centered on the prophet. Every day there are several times when through the loud speakers (very, very loud actually) we can hear the shouting of the prophet’s name, in adoration. Only when a killing is made we hear the saying “God is great!” In my books that’s blasphemy of the highest form.

          So, don’t tell me he’s just another messenger. I think some people will be much more angered if one insults the prophet than God.

      • MadWorld

        You just did it 6 times over bro. probably I like more, but hey you have to say, the bugs stop here.

        • devine

          Sorry MW; I didn’t! I have been cynical… I copied the quote from semak pagar’s comment above (now shown as guest) and indicated that this might be insulting….

    • hruni a

      I really cannot understand what you are saying – but if you are asking me to highlight koranic verses that are contradictory well yes I can do that. Please confirm

      • semak pagar

        oh cmon now my english become so complicated and you now have hard time to understand it, oh boy

        • Valkyrie1604

          You use poor grammar in your postings. A fact.

  • hruni a

    semak pagar

    You offer deflection from the issue that the prophet married a child, an act used by many muslims to justify their own weddings to children

    • semak pagar

      i offered a Quranic based of thinking which is liberal, rational, free of contradiction and guidance to the truth. The stories in reality were used by two sides, one used them to justify their lust, other used them to insult. Both of them believe the stories and not using their intllectual capabilities when facing information, Quran came to both of them but both of them are not appreciative.

      • hruni a

        liberal, rational, free of contradiction and guidance to the truth…..

        Big claim.

        But lets see if you can back it up… Lets’s start with your Koranic view on creation..

        Over to you

        • semak pagar

          its not big claim, do you have your view about creation? because saying that we are made by atoms then saying that we are made by water then saying that we are also consist of dna, meat and fat also may trigger a conclusion that science can be contradictive, is Quran against evolution? or it support evolution? hmm

          • hruni a

            is Quran against evolution? or it support evolution?… you are he expert semak – what does it say to you??

          • semak pagar

            haha, cmon man, of course it says about evolution but may be different with darwin understanding, and is darwin understanding the one and only way to explain evolution? of course not haha, thanks God im an exploration geophysicist. btw Darwin is still a great scientist.

          • Wong Edan

            If you believe in things without evidence then you are no scientist.

          • semak pagar

            what things?

          • Wong Edan

            Well, a god for one thing…

          • semak pagar

            you free to go, no worry, no compulsion in religion(2:256)

          • TalkingEid

            no compulsion in religion? True, as long as you are A Sunni Muslim I guess.

          • mauriceg

            Exploration Geophysicist??? Why do I doubt this? I think that you found this job-title somewhere in a book. Or did you purchase a degree. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the stand of your posts does not support an academic background.
            Now, I may be wrong, and I apologize profusely if so. But, if you are truly as you claim, why are your posts so poorly written. They also seem to be in the style the standard hostile Muslim who knows almost nothing beyond his Koran. So let’s hear about Exploration Geophysics. How are you on Areophysics? Selenology? Because I can certainly not be fooled.

        • Valkyrie1604

          I have also asked him to provide an answer which I don’t believe will be forthcoming because he has to contradict himself.

      • Voxclara

        sp: [Quranic based of thinking which is liberal, rational, free of contradiction and guidance to the truth.]

        Then those Islamists who commit atrocities against non Muslims including the Boston marathon bombers and the London attacks where two Islamists hacked to death and beheaded the young innocent British soldier, all these Muslims must have severe misunderstanding of Islam and the Quran. They must, otherwise they wouldn’t be killing us.

        Then there are the many verses of hatred and violence, hmmm….

        • semak pagar

          thanks clara, thats why they fall to non quranic religion/not a genuine moslem, btw pls tell me which verses(it should be easy as you say there are many of them) of hatred and violences? so we can discuss them here

        • Valkyrie1604

          There’s quite a lot of empty barrels that I’ve observed and this particular one truly makes the most of it.

          • Guest

            i didnt see you put something valuable here, scroll back and see, what you put in comments are only short words out of context.

  • hruni a

    semak pagar

    you cannot draw conclusion from trivial info

    But many muslims are using the same trivial info to kill, attack and oppress

    • semak pagar

      you mean sunni maybe? or syii? or salafi? or trinity christian? trinity christian also invade attack kill and opress

      • hruni a

        Semak
        All around this planet Muslims of one flavor or another are killing each other in the name of your god – they are often doing so over differences in interpretations of the holy koran, or because one sect might believe A whilst another thinks B or that one practice offends another.
        Here we are seeing people forced to convert, people attacked and driven from their homes even killed, again because of different beliefs within the one blanket myth –
        We are also seeing our culture overrun by Arabization in the way we behave, attitudes towards others and like here how we dress – and it is being disguised as being a ‘good muslim’ when clearly it is not.
        Regarding Trinity Christains – well lets exchange facts on that. You can post their atrocities and in return I will post Muslim atrocities
        The rules are simple
        ‘acts carried out soley because of religious differences’ like for example the attacks on the Ahmadiyah or Sh’ia in Indonesia.

        Over to you. I am not a Christian for reference

        • semak pagar

          its over to you also, i dont see sunni syii ahmadi as they do not use quran as basis, im not them also im not christian. and thanks for info that they kill each other, if you didnt tell me i will not know :) OF COURSE i know it man :) i think youll ask me about creation but now i do not have passion to answer it because you can learn by yoursel

          • hruni a

            great cop out

          • Reeefer

            Muslims killing muslims killing non muslims and you utter this stupidity

          • Good,Bad and Ugly

            The 72+- sects of Islam use the Quran; the many thousand Christians sects use the Bible. Ie Syii and Ahmadi equally use the Quran.

            You do not tell others that it is not their book also; you do not tell others what is right or wrong. Especially from books that are hearsay, not backed up by evidence, written by faithful believers also not educated. (well, educated to the level of the times)
            Over the many years that I post this type of thread asking for proof and evidence, I do not get much back in the way of logical debate. It gets kind of lonely standing among the dumb.

          • mauriceg

            No such thing as creation, laddie. it’s a made-up word from long ago, when people needed to explain where our universe came from. Modern science is giving us deep insights into the workings of nature. It looks like some of our ideas (for example, the Higgs Boson, a theory for 50 years and recently its discovery at CERN), a triumph of the human mind.
            Religion gives no insights into reality or truth. It tells lies about origins, even after thousands of years of slow progress out of ignorance and superstition. It tries to pretend otherwise, but to no avail. In the Western world religion is a social tool, still beneficial for times of bereavement.
            But your god is a ‘god of the gaps’; the gaps in knowledge that were wider in ancient times, but diminishing as we understand more about Nature.
            BTW, Muslim on Muslim killing is growing daily around the world. There is also a never-ending stream of suicide bombers being born and killed every minute. What does that tell you?
            I know what it tells me.

          • semak pagar

            hi lady, explain me the latest higgs boson research in cern, looks like you have good knowledge in physics :) do you have latest publication from them?

          • TalkingEid

            You can read all you want on CERN’s website guest – http://home.web.cern.ch/

          • Valkyrie1604

            You’re not clever therefore the opposite. The name “Maurice” is associated with the masculine gender. Kapish?

          • mauriceg

            @Guest – ‘hi lady?’. That word ‘laddie’ shows I’m from Scotland, and it means a diminutive of ‘lad’ or boy. It can be said casually as in ‘daft wee laddie’ meaning silly little boy.
            Enough digression.. If you want to have physics lessons from me, my rates will be quite reasonable, although I’m not sure where to start as I don’t know your level as yet. Also, you may need a grounding in maths to cope.

            So unless we are going into a long term teacher student-relationship where you will learn about what makes our universe tick, as we know it in 2013, then I suggest that it would be considerably cheaper to Google for CERN and Higgs Boson.

            (TalkingEid below has supplied you with the link, for which my profuse thanks).

            Doing so may not guarantee you will understand any of it, or where it fits in with our ideas about the so-called Standard Model, but hey, it’s a start. Education is for life.
            (Just kidding about the physics lessons; I just teach face to face, and not online).

          • TalkingEid

            My Sky Pixie is bigger than your Sky Pixie……

          • TalkingEid

            My Sky Pixie is bigger than your Sky Pixie……

  • semak pagar

    thanks for downvoting me, love it

    • Valkyrie1604

      I’m a terribly nice guy, so here’s another one for you! Since you love it. I have a feeling more will come.

  • semak pagar

    evolution in clay, water, dust/earth we are, as evolution stages, we then from sperm and egg, embrio, fetus no contradiction, are you consist of atoms? or 70% of you is water? arent you made of meat and fat? you are earthy material, are they contradictive for you? it is our present science, and possibly popular, you can see it contradictive using your limited intllgnc

    • Valkyrie1604

      Pleaseeeeee tell me where you outsourced this rubbish?

    • mauriceg

      Dear Semak Pagar, just responding to your.. err evolution paragraph. I don’t suppose you would like to clarify this? Because those of us rational folk have no idea what it’s about.

      Did you just take some random words from a science book to appear intelligent? Well, don’t worry, you’re safe with me because I wouldn’t have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

      • semak pagar

        halo maurice, im not someone studying evolution. the question: is quran support evolution? the answer is yes. you can safe also with me, no worry mate

  • semak pagar

    madworld: need bit sip of red wine to brush up my english, my email semak_pagar@yahoo.com for anyone who wants a further discussion, not just say great cop out

    • Valkyrie1604

      Keep it to yourself.

      • semak pagar

        thanks then

  • Voxclara

    Dear WebEd, why is it some of my comments are published and others aren’t? I posted the comment below in reply to semak pagar a few minutes earlier than the the other two comments but it wasn’t published. This is happening more frequently now.

    @semak pagar :

    Contradictions in the Qur’an:

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#bible

    [The Qur'an in Contradiction to the Earlier Revelations:

    Ultimately, the strongest, most serious problem of the Qur'an is that it affirms the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians as authentic and true revelation from God (cf. what the Qur'an says about the Bible), while radically denying central aspects of their message, e.g. the core themes of sacrifice and atonement in the Torah, the crucifixion of Jesus, the deity of Jesus and even the mere messianic title "Son of God" for Jesus, the very nature of God, the fall and the sinfulness of man (*, *), necessity and means of salvation, etc. For this reason Muslims had to invent the unwarranted theory of corruption of the earlier scriptures, even against the clear testimony of the Qur'an itself.]

    • semak pagar

      dear clara, its not my intention to say about this website. Have ye check them or just copy paste?

  • Guest

    valkyrie, so tell them not to adore muhammad, you have gut to tell them? i told them, many times, i also told my christian friends to stop worshipping son of mary, peacefully of course

  • Voxclara

    Semak P, I am still waiting for your response.
    You claimed:
    -there is no contradiction in your Quran
    -Jews are honoured in your Quran
    -no stoning of adulters in your Quran

    I have used your Quran to refute your claim, so please respond.

    • semak pagar

      clara, im not a man explaining you all thing cause God said Hes the one explaining Quran, not even muhammad, but pls if you need any help from me about the contradiction pls be specific ie. this verse is in contradiction with this one and this one, lot of people in reality are lazy to read, you can take some good translation of Quran and quote things you think are in contradictions. ok? fair enough i think

    • MadWorld

      dear Vox, are you “Waiting for Godot”??

      • semak pagar

        have ye told them not to worship man? im also waiting for godot for the request i made below.

        • Valkyrie1604

          I’m truly surprised that you know who “Godot” is. I didn’t and I looked it up. Did you? How about a truthful answer?

          • semak pagar

            when i was activist-student some of my friends play ‘menunggu godot’ in student theater. You stay in eu and read jakarta globe? in love with indonesia hah? an act from you to tell people not to worship man also a ‘menunggu godot’

          • TalkingEid

            semak pagar has the answer to everything – except questions.

          • devine

            Hahaha… that is a good one :) … same as Rajiv…

          • semak pagar

            you ask i’ll answer ok? so ask me

    • Valkyrie1604

      Seed that fell by the wayside. It’s certainly not found in that book.

      • semak pagar

        dont have gut to tell them ye? tell them not to adore human rather than grumbling here

        • Valkyrie1604

          You’re arguing like a silly kid. Grow up and present postings worthy of reading. Guess you don’t even know why I said the seed fell by the wayside. You’re not as smart as you believe you are. Prove I’m wrong by answering Voxclara’s questions.

          • semak pagar

            val, i also didnt ask your believe, thank you for tellin me, no compulsion in religion(2:256, 4:90, 10:99 etc)

          • Guest

            you grow up also man.

    • semak pagar

      you are not askin me, you make a statement here. from the three i didnt say jews are honoured in quran, i request you put >1 verses from quran here you think are in contradiction. For adulterer punishment you can use an e copy of quran translation then search for adultery, its clear there. My answer always including an advice to open Quran, you will not like it because you dont want to read it.

  • Guest

    ive just realized after scroll all the conversation below, people arguing without any wish to read the quran, one even said he will not read it bcause its in arabic(vakyrie ?) well, i suggest to read the translation, after that the discussion will be fairer. I will stop myself from discussion if the other side in reality do not have knowledge capability in quran and even do not want to read quran(translation)

    • Valkyrie1604

      I have a Chinese translation of the Qu’ran. You want to try reading it?

      • semak pagar

        stay in EU and read jakartaglobe?

        • GypsyMacaque

          I live in EU & read J.G. In EU you can read anything you like, including Salman Rushdi satanic version, Pramudya Ananta Toer, or who kill jesus.

      • semak pagar

        now i can undestand why you have chinese translation cause you are singaporean and has been living in indonesia for long time. You know? before i know u r a singaporean i have seen your comment as a childish emotional person who said shorty word out of topics. fyi my mam a chinese descent and my grandpa sometimes speak hakka and mandarin. But bcause youve been long time here you dont have to say my words in indonesian ‘like greek to you’ :) be calm man

        • Valkyrie1604

          I posted that remark 5 days ago. Being a stup** person is not an effort for you.

          Read what I actually said. To refresh your memory, I said for the benefit of those who do not understand Bahasa Indonesia. This is primarily an English language board, so let’s stay with writings in English. If you choose to post in a foreign language, be polite by providing a translation. This is precisely why I said it would sound like Greek. Kapish? (understand?)

          I read and write English, Bahasa Indonesia and Chinese (Hanyu Pinyin) and spoken Hokkien dialect.

          Now, who’s being childish and emotional?

          ps

          I currently live in Indonesia and never in the EU. Get your facts right, you …..!

  • dee

    Dear Dian, i’m a muslim and yes, i wear hijab. First, i do agree with you on that candies analogy. I’ve been wondering for years before I decided to wear hijab. I ask many of my muslim friends who already wear hijab and they told me the same reason like that. I was upset. I mean, why should I do something to get advantage from it? Is that really how religion works? Maybe it is, but it’s not satisfying for me. So, one day, another muslim woman asked me, why am I being muslim? Is it because I was born muslim or is it my real decision? She asked me, am I really love Allah and obey Him? Now I think that hijab is a form of our obedient. I wear hijab because Allah said so. If I say I’m a muslim, then I should think, behave, and dress like a muslim too. Islam is a whole system, you can’t take one part you like and throw away the rest. It’s a commitment. it’s a commitment and you have to be istiqamah. Let them say and judge you whatever they want, focus on yourself and Allah. It doesn’t matter what they say, it’s about you, doing the right thing :)

    • devine

      Please give us an exact quote WHERE Allah said so…

      • rovina

        http://quran.com/33/59

        “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.”

        • devine

          Well I fail to see that this includes the head…
          ___
          Anyway, the Chinese garment industry is happy because that is where most hijab are made…

          • Valkyrie1604

            Did they suddenly realize that? Decades ago, very few wore the Hijab even when I was working in Aceh. (1980s)

            No, I think that it’s more towards fashion and style. Observe the ladies on television. Beauty salons are losing a fair amount of business. Yes, they wear it to signify their faith, but I strongly believe it’s more on vanity.

          • TalkingEid

            more like mindless sheep who cannot make their own decisions.

          • Valkyrie1604

            In many ways too! I agree.

          • TalkingEid

            kind of fits with the dominant Javanese feudal mindset too, of course.

          • devine

            Or maybe lemings :)

      • tony

        Why do you keep asking something that is ‘irrational’ for you?

        • devine

          Well, it is irrational for all… isn’t it? Why did Indonesian Muslim women not wear the hijab for hunderts of years and only started to do so in the last 10 years? Please explain in order for me to understand what I have missed here…

        • Valkyrie1604

          Why are you asking ‘devine’ this question. I’m a little perplexed. I would appreciate an explanation. Thank you.

    • Voxclara

      Hi dee, you said [Islam is a whole system, you can't take one part you like and throw away the rest. It's a commitment. it's a commitment and you have to be istiqamah.] So, you have no choice but to agree with the following verses:

      Qur’an 9:29-Fight against Christians and Jews ”until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.”

      Qur’an 4:91- If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.

      . Qur’an 9:7-9-Don’t make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.

      Qur’an 9:12-14-Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory.

      . Qur’an 9:5 Kill the nonbelievers wherever you find them.

      Qur’an 2:191-2-Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

      Qur’an (5:51) – ”O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.”

      Qur’an (2:65-66) Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.

      Qur’an (4:48, 4:116)-Those who ascribe a partner to Allah (like Christians do with Jesus and the Holy Spirit) will not be forgiven. They have “invented a tremendous sin.”

      Qur’an (4:51)-Jews and Christians believe in idols and false deities, yet they claim to be more rightly guided than Muslims.

      Qur’an (5:51) Don’t take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

      Qur’an (5:80) – “You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.” Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

      Qur’an (3:85) – ”And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.”

      . Qur’an 9:6-Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don’t submit will be killed. See previous verse.)

    • GypsyMacaque

      What a crap reasoning.
      To begin with; You were born as a FREE individual, your parents/friends/education/socio-economical situation make your religious belief.

    • rustynails

      Sorry Dian, You weren’t born anything you were indoctrinated the same as christian, hindu or any other religion. Your religion is an accident of location not divine fate.

    • Fayaz Ahamed M

      Really loved your comment, yes imaan means surrendering the will to the will of allah, without imaan nothing with the amal, insha allah apko zindagi aur akhirath may kamiyabi mile,

  • Valkyrie1604

    Just noticed your post. Nicely put. Hana is probably a troll.

  • david

    Silly!! Shouldn’t you start to realize something is wrong??!! Either the teaching is wrong or a significant number of people (unfortunately they are influential) are twisting the teaching. To prove that the teaching is right then most of you who believe in the teaching should dissociate with these people who try to claim authority to interpret the teaching and twisting it.

  • lahm
  • Doddlebugger

    The problem is most women willingly allow themselves to be subjected to such degradation of their human dignity.

  • teo

    the shame is that a wrapped candy woman has to take with her a dirty unwrapped candy man, blessed by God..

  • yes

    I agree with Dian Kuswandini.

  • Fatima

    Amazing piece sister! People need to understand a dichtomy between religious and cultural choices. Furthermore,, post colonialism in Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) women dressed modest but the hijab derive from the catholic practice.
    I am not religious but these supposed practitioners, instead of advising us women, are dictating our lives and judging us, this itself is a terrible sun. I hope Allah guided us all on the right path inshallah, thank you for these words I can relate as a moral non-hijab weaing Muslim.

    Especially when I know hijab girls that not only dress badly, but are rude, disobedient and engage in sexual acts. I am not perfect but have not engaged in acts and I am kind to all, I dress modest. Islam is a religion of love this we should not be condemning each other’s choices. Inshallah He guides us all on the right path.

    • TalkingEid

      I support you 100% Fatima – purity is in the heart, not how we dress.

      • Fayaz Ahamed M

        Character matters a lot than anything else i do agree, but tell me would you alowe your wife, daughter and sister to wear bikinis and walk on the road, if they say iam pure from inside…

        • bystander

          If they want to wear Bikini just because they say you are pure inside ….no.
          If they want to wear bikini because they want to go to the beach since it is 40°C outside, then yes

    • Fayaz Ahamed M

      I don’t know why you are passing judgement after allah and his beloved prophet SAWS, has passed, if you dont want to wear hijab dont wear so, but why do you pass judgement…. doing wrong and asking forgiveness is different than doing wrong and believing it to be true…

      You know allah and his prophet are right, and you see on the day of judgement…

  • hehyes

    Wearing hijab IS compulsory, but shouldn’t be forced. Just as every “amalan” in Islam like praying, fasting and charity; one should do it not because others tell them to but coming from initiative. Muslims should do their amalan because they are ready to do it and realize fully that Allah has ordered them to do so. The only rightful judge is Allah so the cleric who use candle analogy is wrong.

    Lakum dinukum waliyadin, fellow muslims can only reminds but should never force one another

    • TalkingEid

      “Wearing hijab IS compulsory, but shouldn’t be forced.” Is it just me?

      • MadWorld

        Me & You very confusing.

  • hehyes

    I will take the first one

    You will find others who
    wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from
    their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence
    of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not
    withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands,
    then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And
    those – We have made for you against them a clear
    authorization.

    that is the full ayat, you shouldn’t cut the verse in the middle of it. CONTEXT

    • barkhov

      yeah, preach us for quoting incomplete ayat, but who’s going to take responsibility when muslims actually kill others because he’s fed with “incomplete ayat”? you?

    • Voxclara

      @hehyes,

      You didn’t mention which ayat, it is Quran 4:91 which you have quoted in full.

      All the ayats I quoted are just the gist (summary), anyone can google the full complete ayat as you did. I summarise it for convenient purpose only so it isn’t too long.

      If you compare the complete ayat you quoted and mine:

      (Qur’an 4:91- If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.)

      Both say the same thing, that is kill the unbelievers unless they return to the faith, because you are allowed to kill them, see what I mean?

      Now I wonder if Dian would agree with this?

      • geoff

        it talks about a peace treaty man, the context is hunain war. There are also verses saying about roman empire that will be defeated by moslem in the lowest point of the earth. You have been defeated by darren before so learn something! people can also quote things from leviticus but we do not want to do it.

        • Voxclara

          Darren1 never defeated me. He dismissed historical facts and the Islamic scriptures because they do not support his stance. How can one argue against historical fact and what’s in the Quran? You can’t!

          If you read ( unless you are illiterate) Q 4:91, the treaty part is only with those that will embrace or return to Islam, otherwise you are to kill them, because killing them is sanctioned by the Quran. THAT IS WHAT Quran 9:41 says. Can’t you read? Should I assume that you are illiterate ?

          You can quote any Biblical passages you like. Let’s see how well you can explain any Biblical exegesis including Leviticus!

          • Jehovah

            A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

            Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

            But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

            1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

          • TalkingEid

            Any quotes from the NEW Testament Jehova? Such as Matthew 2:26? Yep, nothing matches selective quoting right?

  • DianKuswandini

    Salam to all,
    It came to my surprise that my old article was “awaken from the death”.
    I wrote numerous comments before, but it seems that the new format of JG web doesn’t store them. So let me once again write my clarification.

    Did I say somewhere I hate hijab?
    Did I say that I’m proud of choosing not to wear hijab?
    Please read again, and you’ll see that I wrote I’m not against hijab and that someday I might wear one. My whole hijab experiences actually go beyond this writing. It started from my teenage days, when I was forced by my teachers to wear hijab during their Islamic Teaching classes (or I would get low marks if I refuse to do so). I felt ridiculous to wear a headscarf with my short-skirt uniform. I have many other stories I don’t think I can share here. But does it make me hate hijab? Not at all. I have to be honest that my father is a Muslim scholar who’s leading Islamic organizations like Muhammadiyah, Parmusi and Bayt al-Qur’an, as well as teaching Islamic history & culture and wrote many books on it. But despite this religious background, he has never forced me into hijab. My mother and sisters all decided to wear hijab from their hearts. So, I DID NOT come from hatred when I wrote this article. My intention with this post isn’t to debate hijab as an obligation in the first place — but to highlight people’s judgments toward non-hijabis :)

    I feel sad every time I see Muslims attack other Muslims, just because of different views, including through pressures, threats and verbal bullying. Reminding another Muslim about a good deed is surely positive, but what makes it negative is when it’s followed by pressures, degrading analogies or labeling. I’ll write it once again: It could turn people away even further from Islam. For example, here are few “reminders” from cleric Felix Siauw, that I’ve found very judgmental and full of fitnah: “Pantas saja hijab enggan engkau kenakan, karena memang engkau inginkan lelaki kagumi badan.”
    (Translation: No wonder that you don’t want to wear hijab, because you indeed want men to admire your body.) Another one: “Ia mengotori kehormatan diri dan Islam saat buka aurat.” (Translation: She defiles her dignity and Islam when she opens her aurah.)

    Sorry, but I’ve found them very judgmental. I live in France, where I know many WONDERFUL and RELIGIOUS muslim women who do not wear hijab because they simply can’t. I know too many of them already who got fired from jobs because they tried to don hijab. So, they don’t wear hijab NOT because they want men to admire their bodies. It’s so much easy to judge Muslim women when you’re (religious?) Muslim men, because you don’t go through what we go through. At the same time, when Muslim women aren’t allowed to wear hijab (like in France and Belgium), many Muslims roar, screaming about “the right to wear we want to wear”. Now, please apply the same to those who don’t choose hijab :)

    Anyway, if you read my latest writing on “Hijab: Between Faith & Fashion”, you’ll understand where I come from as a Muslim — discrimination by those with the “I’m more Muslim than you” syndrome is the key. I think the least I could do as a Muslim woman is to write what I observe from my surrounding, and what I’ve learned from personal experiences. I know, deep in my heart, many Muslim women out there share similar stories like me, because I received so many personal mails following this writing. I’m NOT proud of choosing not to wear hijab (like one accused me in a comment). I just don’t want to be part of either a silent majority or… a silenced minority :)

    • Valkyrie1604

      Thank you for being so honest especially when this concerns “obligations” in your Faith which some of us view differently. More so, because you’re a woman (Muslim by belief).

      As a Christian, I have read my Holy Scriptures and there are portions of which I am not able to accept. From my immediate family, I have received remarks on several occasions, why I DO NOT attend Church regularly. My relation with my God is personal and attending Church regularly does not make me a better Christian. At least for me. I will worship Him whenever and wherever I choose.

      Unlike your father, mine was religiously strict. Every Sunday was Sunday School. Eventually, he changed because he realized that it was NOT possible to adhere to what our Scripture demands of us. You see, I am married to a wonderful lady, a Muslim.

      Live well, dear lady.

    • MadWorld

      God/Allah preordained you through your heart, Not because you are wearing hijab. HE is not to be fooled. The heart is not wearing any religious clothing.

    • TalkingEid

      Simply the best article (and follow up) that I have read on the subject. If only more Muslims would read it ALL and contemplate it, perhaps Islam would gain a lot more respect and understanding in Indonesia and throughout the world.

    • bystander

      Well. it IS a good article :D

    • White^Musk

      thank you for the good article. i’m from indonesia and i found that felix siauw’s tweets about hijab are often very judgemental. I know that actually he has good intention and actually there are many of his other tweets that true.

  • Diederik

    I agree with the man. How can you say you’re a “muslim” and then not follow the koran? There’s no “islam lite”, just “islam” or “unbeliever” (in which you’ll burn in hell for eternity, etc, but since you don’t believe that you’ll be fine).

    It’s time “muslims” around the world started to read their holy book cover to cover and then make a lifestyle (and fashion) choice.

  • Human, Not GOD

    Question. Why focus more on what you are wearing or not than what you’re doing or not? I don’t think wearing hijab means you’re more sacred than those who are not and otherwise, it’s a choice, and I bet Allah knows who is the good person and who isn’t ‘inside’ and won’t judge a girl if she deserves heaven or hell just from the fact if she’s wearing hijab or not. Allah won’t be that shallow, right? Or, am I wrong? Oh, and that candy analogy is a super-fallacy, comparing women to candy, so unbecoming. *rolling eyes*

  • dee

    I am a non-muslim and i see hijab as something sacred, shows high commitment and devotion of a women. Sad to see that some (even my own gender) threats hijab in low respect and appreciation. Nice piece :)

  • jakarta

    Funny, another ‘dee’ 3 days ago said she was a moslem but expressed similar comment with you. :)

    • Dezmond Edison Christian

      fnaar

      • TalkingEid

        fnaar fnaar – another troll outed – well done Desmond. I owe you a beer I think.

  • pakGuru

    no matter which god i believe in, there’ll be someone who says my god is a fake and that i’ll go to hell.

  • human2

    I have never seen a young girl want to wear a hijab. I see them always forced into wearing it often told off sternly if they don’t wear it. After wearing one from the age of 10/11 until 20 they are conditioned to feel unsafe and exposed if they do not wear it. I think the idea of free choice as to whether or not to wear one is a myth. Families have very strong opinions about this and would disown their children in some cases if they choose not to wear it. I challenge those who think they made they choice to wear it go for 1 week without it and judge your families, neighbors and friends reactions. See how judgmental and uncomfortable you feel and tell me it was your choice. Your choice to start wearing it and your choice to continue wearing it.

    • devine

      Well said !

    • sheldon archer

      Unfortunately the last thing that religious leaders want to see is freedom of choice. With that, they tend to lose control.

  • buchong
  • sheldon archer

    So as you see things, everyone else should see them? The Christian Bible commands death to all Gays, fortune tellers, women who marry and are not virgins, children who curse at their parents etc etc. Would you be happy to see them show a high commitment and devotion to their religion?

  • Adi

    All those making/ dressing themselves to look religious reminds me of this: You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

  • Len

    Excellent article!

  • Arie

    just a piece of advise, when we still can not do it…istighfar may Allah Azza wa Jalla help us.

    • TalkingEid

      I might take your advice – if I understood it.

  • MadWorld

    Not mentioning the smell

  • apa?

    I dont understand what this is all about.

    Is it about a head scarf? If so, it seems people have fairly strong feelings about head scarfs, which is surprising because people don’t seem to have similarly strong feelings about hats, or scarfs, or shoulder scarfs, or other items of clothing above the shoulder. What is it about the head scarf that is so important? Is this discussion really happening in the 21st century? Has anyone ever read Darwin’s Origin of Species?

    • devine

      It is about the Arabization of Indonesia…

      • TalkingEid

        Its about genuinely free choice. I laugh myself sick as international flights reach Jakarta, and the number of hijabs rises in inverse proportion to the number of mini skirts worn.

    • MadWorld

      About looking pious, hypocrite actually.

  • Rose Christo

    Good article. I’ve been considering “reverting” to Islam and I worry about the hijab, because even though I think they are beautiful garments, my culture and my family (Native American/Cree) would probably look at me funny if I started wearing one. I have read the Quran so many times–its message is fascinating–and the verses say to dress modestly (which I already do). Nowhere do they specifically say “Wear a headscarf,” “Wear hijab,” “Wear niqab.” Just “Dress modestly.” (7:26, 24:30-31) (And these verses are addressing both women and men.) Something to think about.

    • pagarkembang

      agree with you, follow the Quran alone, all the silly things come from man made religion(hadits, sunnah etc).

      • anna_gee

        Sorry, but what you considered man made and silly (Hadith, Sunnah), came from our Prophet Muhammad. He’s the messenger, so he could communicate with Almighty Allah through Jibril. So Hadith and Sunnah are not man made, because Prophet Muhammad didn’t recite it himself. If you don’t believe in Hadith, you don’t believe in Prophet Muhammad. That means the 1st rule “Shahadah” is broken, and that means you’re not a Muslim..

        • pagarhijau

          oh cmon, what you call as hadith and sunnah are made by bukhary and others, they are not ‘holy’. Also, in quran, the real shadah is only the first part, you have been duped by things called as ‘hadith and sunnah’, they are similar with thalmud in jew religion.

          • anna_gee

            Yes, it’s put on the 1st part, because it’s the most important. And yes, Bukhari is not somewhat a holy person. But he is a great scholar in later times. He spent most of his life collecting hadith from the renowned and trustworthy reporters. He didn’t make it himself. He just rewrote it based on the information he got from the continuous isnad. Ofcourse not all hadith are shahih. Some of them are dho’if or weak, and should be avoided. There are lots of requirements before a hadith considered as shahih, or authentic. If you can prove one shahih hadith is actualy a total lie, I might reconsider it.

        • rustynails

          Funny when I actually studied Islam (unlike many here) it was very, very clear that one Muslim was specifically forbidden judging another. Tsk Tsk and I thought we said I am not here to judge anyone, well that didn’t last long did it.

          • anna_gee

            Sorry, I didn’t mean to judge anyone here. But his statement that Sunnah is silly is just so wrong. Again, it’s not my personal judgement, as it’s clearly stated in Qur’an. “It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.” (Surah Al-Ahzab : 36) The Sunnah is the explanation of the Qur’an, not a silly stuff.

        • Wong Edan

          Err… if Muhammad didn’t recite it himself, how come others heard the story? Did they read his mind? Like the works of the brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Anderson, the Koran is a collection of stories invented by man spread by word of mouth until they were written down. They have changed since then, and are told in a different order, but they are still stories, not a good way to decide how to live your life, despite the moral messages in some of them.

          • bystander

            I guess what Anna_gee means by recite means is that the content of quaran / hadith and sunanh were given to the prophet by got, and that he didnt made them up.
            i.e. He “heared” a voice telling him what to do, or at least he claimed to have heared a voice that tould he what to do.

    • bystander

      “I have read the Quran so many times–its message is fascinating–and the verses say to dress modestly (which I already do).”

      I am puzzled. What message? There are several. Or are you just referring to the message to dress modest. If so, why not just stick with that and just dress modest? Why do you need a diety to tell you to dress modest?

      Just curious.

    • GypsyMacaque

      Beter wears eagle feather head dress on your head instead. Be yourself.

  • MadWorld

    Just thinking, comparing women to candy, I do feel the women wearing burqa, or islamic veil are candies that contains 50% strychnine & or @45%quinine, unpleasant to suck .

    • http://www.facebook.com/dewi.thompson.9 Dewi Thompson

      Depends on which Burqa you pick to suck on, you would be surprised.

      • GypsyMacaque

        Dewi,Dewi, I have a very simple adage in my life. I was given 2 eyes when born,so, BEFORE, I fall in love I wanted to see the full contour of my wife to-be, but wearing burqa, I have to run my imaginations based on her voice & eyes only.
        That’s before I conjured to suck her…..burqa?? Like candy though.
        Love is not blind you know.

  • Surga Neraka

    Wearing hijab is an obligation. Yes of course, it doesnt matter what your profession is. Prostitute? wear one. Teacher ? wear one. You dont want to wear hijab? okay, there are many obligation in islam to follow, not being a prostitute for an example.

    • Botak

      “okay, there are many obligation in islam to follow, not being a prostitute for an example.”

      What about corruption, killing in the name of god, oppression…..??

  • anna_gee

    Every choice has consequences. I’m not gonna judge you here, but I can’t blame the others who did. You’re a muslim, so you already know that wearing hijab is an obligation for muslim women. Take another example. Students in school for example, they often get assignments, which have to be done by themselves. Every students knows that it’s one of their obligation as a student. But then there’s one student who never does his/her assignments. Can you blame if his/her friends say something bad about it, like judging him/her a lazy student, perhaps?

    “In which part then hijab can protect women when they work as prostitutes?” It depends on their reasons in wearing hijab. Is it because they realize their obligation as muslim women? Or just for a camouflage? If a muslim woman wears hijab because she wants to fulfill her obligation as a muslim, she surely won’t choose prostitute as her way of life. Non-muslim can wear hijab as well, but that doesn’t mean they’re muslim, right?

    Calling someone a “terrorist” just because of his Arabic attire is often done by non-Arab, who don’t know much about Arab culture, like calling a muslim as a “terrorist” is done by non-muslim just because they don’t know much about Islam. But for this hijab thing, you and the ones who judged you there, are muslims. So I assume you all know about the rules.

    I agree with you, dakwah should be done nicely, without any force. But just don’t blame someone who tells a truth. If a liar told you to be honest, could you blame him/her? It’s not about a person, but what he/she says that matters. Salam..

    • HUnri a

      so you already know that wearing hijab is an obligation for muslim women…. NO ITS NOT – its a modern construct based on medieval needs

      • anna_gee

        “It’s not”??? Who told you so? Any new Koran verse or Hadith to support your opinion? Of course not.

        • devine

          Nothing… really… nothing in the Koran says that you have to or should wear a head scarf… maybe you should sit down now and learn to read the Arabic language and hence see for yourself instead of blindly following hear-say…

          • geoff

            do you know the interpretation of the ‘right hand posses’ ? looks like you also believe the stories of medieval arabia told by hadith coming from holy research of hadith scholar ie bukhary

          • anna_gee

            That’s why we use Sunnah along with the Qur’an. Qur’an gives general information, and the Sunnah is the explanation of the Qur’an. We can give “Shalat” (ritual prayers) as a clear example. Performing shalat 5 times a day is an obligation and there are verses giving general information about how to perform it. However, we can understand how exactly we should perform prayers from Sunnah. Because there is no detailed information in the Qur’an about the way of praying, how many rak’ahs for each prayer, and what to say in a prayer. We can learn such details only by looking at Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad.

          • TalkingEid

            “We can learn such details only by looking at Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad”…. and Sunni murder Si’ites, and Shi’ites murder Sunni – because we pray in the ‘wrong’ way.

        • devine

          Do you know why Muslims increasingly kill each other around the world? Because they still can not agree on what/who is right and what/who is wrong…
          And as you know the killing has started here in Indonesia too. Does this not give you to think? Seriously! I guess… of course not… since of course your interpretation is the right one… And does even that not give you to THINK!?

          • buchonggirl

            not only moslem, anders brvik also good in interpreting the christianity

          • anna_gee

            I guess the topic is about hijab? But anyway, since you asked, I wanna ask a question as well. Do you know who started the 1st world war? And the second? Not Muslims, for sure.

    • TalkingEid

      You seem confused between “you” and “I” when you say “you already know that wearing hijab is an obligation” – so it’s no surprise to find you don’t know the difference between “bosom” and “hair”.

    • bystander

      “Take another example. Students in school for example, they often get assignments, which have to be done by themselves. Every students knows that it’s one of their obligation as a student. But then there’s one student who never does his/her assignments. Can you blame if his/her friends say something bad about it, like judging him/her a lazy student, perhaps?”

      Nice one. Except one tiny little flaw in your logic. lets say the student is not doing his assignment, not because he/she is lazy but because he/she somehow realizes that the assignment is “silly”.

      • hairynose

        But his/her friends and teachers says that the assignment is very important, and he/she has to do it or he/she will be sent into some scary, hidden torture room and will receive punishment for the rest of his/her lifetime. And lifetime is forever.

        • bystander

          That sounds crule man! what kind of friends and teachers would tell a child something like that?

        • bystander

          That sounds horrible. What kind of friends or teacher would to this to a child??!!??!?!?!

      • anna_gee

        I said “lazy” just for an example of “something bad”. To represent the ones who said something bad about the writer, because she chose not to wear hijab.

        Anyway, the student might won’t take the class if he/she thinks that the class always give him/her silly assignments. It’s his/her choice to join the class or not. But once he/she decides to join, he/she considered as a student of the class, and all the students have to follow all the rules in it.

  • KuciKoo

    People are hypocrites. Wearing a hijab in the belief that you are fulfilling an obligation while at the same time stealing millions of dollars proves this point. Just look at all the corrupt female politicians facing court. Wearing a hijab does not make you a better Muslim nor should not wearing one make you a bad Muslim. Being an honest and compassionate person should be the goal.

  • Pro Hijabi

    What a misleading article by a completely lost person. May allah guide them and anyone confused about this matter.

    The Hijab is ordained in Surah An- Nur (The Light), verse: 31:

    “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, or their brothers’ sons or their sisters’ sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.”

    There is also:

    Surah Al-A’raf (The Heights), verse: 26:

    “O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.”

    And

    Lastly, in Surah Al-Ahzab (The Clans), verse 59:

    “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.”

    May allah guide us all.

    • TalkingEid

      ” they should draw their veils over their bosoms” – if you think that means cover their hair you need anatomy lessons.
      “We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame” – hair is shameful? WTF????
      “draw their cloaks close round them” – any mention of hair there? Nope, epic fail;see me after class.

    • Valkyrie1604

      I think your perception of the written words as quoted by you has demolished the call to use the hijab. Read carefully:

      “that they should not display their beauty and ornaments………..draw attention to their hidden ornaments”

      Think! What was the writer referring to regarding “beauty” and “hidden ornaments”? For sure the writer was referring to the breasts and the pubic region…..No, nothing about covering the head/face.

      During Adam’s era, men and women were naked. Read your scriptures. They only felt “shame” when Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Thus they were bestowed with raiment. Do you really know what “raiment” actually is? A dictionary would help. Refer.

      The problem here is that your religion does not possess an Old Testament of the Holy Bible.

      Talking Eid is correct! You do need anatomy lessons.

      • Fayaz Ahamed M

        Hello do you really believe bible, then why it is said in bible that iam not the massenger for the entire world. And last massenger will come and whose name is ahmed…

        Jesus never said to make bible which is a word of allah, it was made not less than 60 -70 years after allah has taken him to the skyes,… their are many things in bible which contradict each other, since it has been altered by many popes and others,

        If you surely believe in one god and jesus & bible then you do believe in islam, and prophet Mohammed SAWA as last massenger.

        Quaran has made under the guidance of the prophet sawa as soon the message came from Allah subhanavathala, you can see that not a single thing has been alterd in quaran and it would be their as it till the day of judgement.

        • Valkyrie1604

          Your first paragraph: Those were said by John the Baptist when asked whether he was the Messiah. Never was the name “Ahmed” mentioned. You are lying.

          You are totally wrong in your third para.

          The Qur’an was written many years after the Prophet’s death.

          Is that what they taught you?

          • TalkingEid

            Don’t you just love when someone tries to show how knowledgeable they are about other religions – and makes a complete **** of themselves? Hope the trip is working wonders!

          • Valkyrie1604

            TE: I did mentioned that I would turn it off but sitting down waiting for my daughter to end her shopping spree, I decided to break my decision..( hahaha) Actually missing this column. Here I am in Hollywood and can’t say who are more crazy. The mannequins here on Hollywood Blvd. or some screw-loosed posters. I have not read all the postings but only a cursory look at some. Does it look like it’s being infested with newbies from some undesirable institution/s? No, I do not desire to be dragged into the exchange but merely wanted to say hello to you guys. (Roland, devine, Dez and other regulars) Will be back mid July. CU!

    • devine

      You replaced “slaves” with the word “servants”… malu?

      • coalburnerengineer

        what is ‘the servants whom their right hands possess’ ? do you know its meaning? do you know what is best for its translation?

    • buchong
  • buchong
  • anna_gee

    What is veil? Something you wear over your head or your feet? Use your anatomy lessons along with general lessons. Actually, the original word mentioned in Qur’an is “khumur”, the plural form of “khimar”. Now, what is khimar? Al-Munjid, which is the most popular dictionary in the Arab world, defines al-khimar as “something with which a woman conceals her head.

    The women of Medina in the pre-Islamic era used to put their khumur over the head with the two ends tucked behind and tied at the back of the neck, in the process exposing their ears and neck, only covering their hair. By saying that, “place the khumur over the bosoms,” Almighty Allah ordered the women to let the two ends of their headgear extend onto their bosoms so that they conceal their ears, the neck, and the upper part of the bosom also. (Ar-Rãzi, at-Tafsīru ’l-Kabīr)

    It is absurd to believe that the Qur’an would use the word khimar (which, by definition, means a cloth that covers the head) only to conceal the bosom with the exclusion of the head. It would be like saying to put on your shirt only around the belly or the waist without covering the chest!

    • TalkingEid

      Good to know that Allah has revealed to you personally how to read and interpret the Qur’an. I was always told that it was the literal word of Allah and not subject to interpretation. Does this mean you are the new Prophet?

      • devine

        Certainly sounds like she thinks so…

        • TalkingEid

          just one more Muslim who thinks theirs is the only valid interpretation of the Quran

          • anna_gee

            Funny you sound the same.

          • TalkingEid

            The same? As you? No, I believe in allowing people to make their own decisions. I couldn’t care less if you want to wear a hijab, or any other other stone-age Arabic garb. I wish we WERE the same, and you would stop trying to tell everyone else the correct way to dress.

      • anna_gee

        Sorry guys, but I put (Ar-Rãzi, at-Tafsīru ’l-Kabīr) up there for a reason. That’s the source. Don’t you realize? Haven’t you heard the word “Tafsir”? Oh wait, I guess you’re not even a Muslim?

    • TalkingEid

      to those of us living in the real world a ‘veil’ is just that – a veil, a cover. Nothing in the word ‘veil’ implies hair, face or anything else is covered.
      Funny to see a Muslim saying the Quran is absurd – nice one – watch out for the “I’m more Muslim than you” squad – they will be round soon.

  • Voltron

    The Qur’an is also man made. Allah didn’t sent it by emails, UPS or fax. It was written by man according to what Muhammad said (if you a believer; through Jibril).

    • kembangtaman

      of course Allah didnt sent it by email, ups or fax.Indeed it was written by Muhammad or supervised by him, then what? your comment lack of objectives.

      • MadWorld

        The Koran was compiled HUNDREDS of years after the death of Muhammad,based on the hadith & or sunnah, it was not written by himself, it is a compilations of hear says & linked to the yew & christian traditions. Learn your stuff.

    • TalkingEid

      Careful Voltron – or all the nice, friendly, cuddly, moderate Indonesian Muslims will be out for your blood.

      • jabon sengon

        looks like you hate indonesian moslem ? grow up man, do not spread hate and conflict, no more drone bombing :)

    • anna_gee

      Such a racist, eh? Yes, I’m a believer. I believe in my Prophet Muhammad, that he’s a messenger, that he could communicate with Almighty Allah through Jibril. And that Qur’an came from Almighty Allah, and Muhammad rewrote it down without changing anything so that everybody can read it. You’re gonna laugh on my faith? Go a head, as it’s not gonna change anything. You have no prove that Prophet Muhammad authored it himself either..

      • rustynails

        Perhaps you can explain how the Arabic on the Dome of the Rock is different to the Quran? Just wondering? You are aware there were several versions of the Quran however (and I am sure they got it right hundreds of years later) all alternate versions were collected and destroyed. Which of course, brings us back to the Dome of the Rock…oh oh..

  • TalkingEid

    guess again

  • TalkingEid

    You seem confused. Islam is a religion, not a race.

    • anna_gee

      Oh, come on.. don’t make me do this.
      “Some definitions of racism also include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, ethnic, caste, or religious stereotypes.” (wikipedia).
      And which part did I mention that Islam is a race? How funny you came up with that conclusion. I just think that Voltron’s statement by saying “if you are a believer” sounds a bit racism.

      • bystander

        Little advice. If you quote Wikipedia, at least quote it properly:

        Quote:

        Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior, or superior.

        (end Quote)

        About Racism and Discrimination:
        Quote:
        The exact definition of racism is CONTROVERSIAL both because there is little scholarly agreement about the meaning of the concept “race”, and because there is also little agreement about what does and doesn’t constitute discrimination.

        (end Quote)

        • anna_gee

          What I meant was, the word “racism” is a bit globalize now, not only about people’s biological races, but many factors also considered.

  • TalkingEid

    Indeed. But as we all know, in many Muslim communities both here and elsewhere, the APPEARANCE of piety is given a much higher priority than actually being good. Just look at the number of hijabs sported in our courtrooms.

    • devine

      Wonder what anne_gee’s response is on that…

      • anna_gee

        On what? About hijab in Indonesian courtrooms showed on TV? Don’t blame the hijab when ones suddenly use it to cover their face because they’re ashamed after getting caught.

      • TalkingEid

        like so many – she has answers to everything – except questions.

    • anna_gee

      Really? How many Muslim women are on this earth? How many of them wear hijab, and how many who don’t? And now, how many Muslim women who wear hijab on their daily basis are sported in courtrooms as a suspect (not the ones who suddenly use it after getting caught)? I hope you hold a valid statistic data before coming up with that conclusion.

      • TalkingEid

        I have no idea – do you? or are you simply, again, posting questions rather than answers – the usual deflection by those who have no answers to rational debate.

        • anna_gee

          This debate is already irrational. I posted questions because you made a conclusion up there. You said, “But as we all know, in many Muslim communities both here and elsewhere, the APPEARANCE of piety is given a much higher priority than actually being good”.

          By saying “the APPEARANCE of piety is given a much higher priority than actually being good”, you already made a conclusion. At least give us a valid data before you come up with a claim. That’s how a rational debate goes. That’s why I questioned about your statement, but how funny that you returned the question on me. It’s you who made a conclusion, not me.

      • devine

        Maybe you can provide the stats…

  • TalkingEid

    not to mention those oh so naughty ‘Satanic Verses’.

  • devine

    Neither do you have any proof…

  • Moohamed

    My sky pixie is more cleverer than your sky pixie.

  • anna_gee

    It’s off the topic. But anyway, what difference? About Dome of Rock and Masjid Al-Aqsa? It is surely different. Dome of Rock and Masjid Al-Aqsa are 2 different buildings, but located close to each other. You’ll find the clarification not only in Islamic websites, but also in global traveler site like tripadvisor.

  • TalkingEid

    A fine bit of ‘whataboutery’ – so what?

  • TalkingEid

    You think Indonesian corrupt politicians wear a hijab out of shame? The have no idea of the meaning of the word shame – it’s simply a ploy to win a lighter sentence by displaying their ‘piety’. I guess you fell for it.

  • devine

    Yes but NOW it is Muslims killing Muslims all over the world. And the topic is indeed about hijab … and the tolerance or rather intolerance in this this regard…

  • devine

    I posted the answer 2 times but it seems WebEd has a problem with that…

    • coalburnerengineer

      ‘the servants whom their right hands possess’ is not a good term to explain the ‘ma malakat aymanukum’ in 4:24 and i think what you have posted twice also very wrong

  • TalkingEid

    you accused people of racism because they disagree with your interpretation of Islam. Can you not even understand your OWN words now?

    Epic fail – remedial class again.

    • anna_gee

      Well, please distinguish between “disagree” and “disparage”. I didn’t call Voltron “racist” because of his disagreement. But because the way he made fun of it. If ones disagree with a belief, it’s their choice. But at least keep it themselves, don’t say something to disparage others.

      • TalkingEid

        So calling someone a racist is not meant to disparage them? You REALLY need an education – or at least a good dictionary.

  • TalkingEid

    I prefer dictionaries to wikipedia. Merriam-Webster “racism –

    1
    : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2
    : racial prejudice or discrimination”

    3rd epic fail in a row.

  • bystander

    And yet, when a Non-Muslim man wants to marry a woman who was born into a muslim family (but doesnt believe in the prophet), their marriage will not be accepted by islamic law.

  • bystander

    Btw the quran / hadith and sunnah didnt write themselfs. Historic researchers date the first written version of the quran (+sunnah and hadith) somewhat 80 to 100 AFTER the passing of the prophet.

  • bystander

    Only because Voltron disagrees, He/She is an racist? Pretty bold accusation isnt it? And we dont laugh at your religion, we laugh at you. Not because you are a faithful muslima, but because 90 % of your statements are silly.

    • anna_gee

      Well, please distinguish between “disagree” and “disparage”. I didn’t call him “racist” because of his disagreement. But because the way he/she made fun of it. There’s no need to mention about email, UPS or fax, as he already know that Qur’an was revealed long before the word “computer” even exist.

  • Pow

    If you choose not to wear hijab, then go for it and don’t spread your ridiculous argument in an article. I bet you know the consequences already, as written in the Quran and hadith.

  • bystander

    Ok little history lesson.

    Althought Muslims didnt start the wars, they participated in them. i.e. they were not neutral. And most of the muslim majority countries (at least those in the middle east and north africa) fought alongside the axis powers. you know .. the bad guys.

  • lena

    “i’m not against hijab, who knows that someday i might wear it? sister i like ur words, i just can pray for u..ameen

    • devine

      If things go on as now you one day MUST wear it…

  • Fayaz Ahamed M

    The one who practices islam, according the beloved prophet hadit and sunnah, without any quetions will have sahi imaan.. If you believe allah and beloved prophet do it as they say, just close your eyes and follow it… Take my word you will always find that it is perfect and nothing is better than that.. If you dont believe check it out. Always you will find that yes its true..

    Till you wont surender your will to allah you wont get the iman which is utmost important, evryone can become good man, but attaining his pardon is the aim of life, which you shou’ld forget.

  • bystander

    The quaran was written somewhat 80 -100 Years AFTER the prophets death. And the language and wording used changed several times. Although the general message remained unchanged, the details are open to interpretation. This is why e.g. faithful muslims form lets say indonesia say: wearing hijab and wearing clothing that doesnt expose skin except face hands and feet is modest, and women in Saudi Arabia (the “birthplace” of Islam) women have to wear the burqa and are not even allowed to leave the house without a male guardian if they want to be percieved as modest.

  • bystander

    “If you dont believe check it out. Always you will find that yes its true”.

    nope not necessarily:

    As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6)
    Allah hath sealed their hearts and their hearing, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (7)

    [Surah al-Baqarah (2) : 6 -7]

    The great boss himself sealed the hearts of the unbeliever. Lucky Disbelievers

  • bystander

    Just curious: Why shouldnt she spread her “silly” arguments?

    • TalkingEid

      In case some people start to think for themselves, bystander, instead of acting like malleable sheep.

      • bystander

        And other cases, TalkingEid, it is necessary that someone starts spreading silly arguments, so other people start think for themselfs. And stop acting like mallable sheep.. right?

  • bystander

    And what consequences would that be? A few more years in hell. But in the end she will go to heaven.

  • mauriceg

    @Fayaz Ahamed M, et al – I am a non-believer, and I am gobsmacked and horrified by all the ink and electrons spilled over this issue which is really social behaviour.
    If the Islamic world, in the 1400 years of its existence had ever given a damn about poverty, sickness, education, housing, social equity, disease, art , science, medicine, engineering, it would not be the nadir of the world. It would not have the dubious distinction of being a parasitic blood-thirsty, war-torn, violent, ignorant, pestilential third-world mentality.
    All this pious misogynistic crap about what to wear from you and your co-religionists is designed to distract from the fact that you haven’t a clue, and are walking around in a miasma of confusion, misdirection and fear.

    • Pelan2

      Well said mauriceg, just hope that your posting will be read by the people you are referring to….

  • Semak Belukar

    ok, after all the comments, I know some of you are christian(jesus = god), some of you proclaimed yourself arrogantly as an atheist(no God at all), some of you are sunni(God and Muhammad and Ulema/Quran/Hadits). Some of you also have talked about free will.
    Could someone here :

    -prove me that there is a free will

    -prove me that Quran is not from God or definitely from God

    • rustynails

      Firstly as Wong rightly points out, you are making the claim so it is your task not mine. Secondly, if the Quran has remained unchanged all this time then you can explain why the language used on the Dome of the Rock is not the same as the Quran. As for arrogant, how arrogant of you is it to assume your belief is the only correct one. You are what you are by accident of location of birth nothing more, nothing less.

      • freewilly

        by accident of location of birth, free will?

      • freewilly

        it is there is always people doing good thing in this world, but for good people doing evil thing there is religion inside it

    • TalkingEid

      No because it’s all about what we BELIEVE, nothing to do with logic and proof.

    • devine

      Semak… how about you proof it, or the opposite… I am all ears…

      • freewillibrodus

        cmon, hes asking, if you cannot perhaps other can help

    • freewill maunye

      -proving the existence of free will is impossible(philosophically), our life are witnessing proven law of supreme power, rock falling obey the gravity.
      -the quran must have come from god, a human like muhamad wont be able to make things like that. Ie. Muhammad will not know that the name of pharaoh assistance is Haman as clearly said in quran and proven in our time, Muhammad also wontbe able to arrange that the word yaum(day) occured 365 times in quran, there are lot more….

      • ural mountain

        interesting facts2, also quran talk about six stages in creation consistently:29:20 Say, “Travel in the earth and find out how He originated creation. And how afterward, Allah brings forth entirely new forms. Verily, Allah is the Designer of all things.”

        A small introduction.

        10:3 But, your Lord (Who sent this Book) is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in SIX STAGES, and is established on the Throne of His Almightiness in Supreme Control. He, the Director of all directions, Issuer of all decrees, runs the Universe according to His Laws. No intercessor can stand in His Court but as a witness of Law (2:255, 16:111)). Such is Allah, your Sustainer. You shall serve Him. Won’t you use your intellect and reasoning?

        11:7 He created the heavens and the earth in SIX STAGES and established Himself on the throne of His Almightiness. He has Supreme Control over the origination of life which began in water (21:30). Life is a test for yourselves to see which of you leads a balanced life and is best in conduct. Yet, if you (O Prophet), say, “You will be raised again after death,” the rejecters of the Truth will surely answer, “This is clearly nothing but a fabulous delusion!” (45:24).

        32:4 Allah it is Who has created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in SIX STAGES, and is established on the Throne of His Almightiness of Supreme Control (7:54). You have no patron and no intercessor beside Him. Will you not, then, bear this in mind?

        57:4 He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in SIX STAGES, and is established on the Throne of His Almightiness of Supreme Control. (7:54,10:3, 13:2, 20:5, 25:59, 32:4, 57:4). He knows all that enters the earth and all that comes forth from it, and all that descends from the sky, and all that ascends therein. And He is with you wherever you may be. And Allah is Seer of what you do.

    • mauriceg

      @Semak Belukar – never, never, never make the mistake of writing that atheists are arrogant. That is just your opinion, and it serves to make you look ever so foolish.
      By doing this, you start with an unproven assumption (a hypothesis, if you like), which you claim to be incontrovertible fact (the idea that the Universe has a creator that is him/herself uncreated). That itself, if you were at all intellectually honest (and I hae me doubts as to that, me old mucker), causes logical problems (who created your Allah, for starters), that you would rather not think about, but has to be considered if you wish not to be laughed at.
      Do please call us when you have worked that one out. We’ll be all ears.

      • drZedtujuhdelapan

        ok, atheist are all not arrogant(again i put this statement as wrong statement like paradox because there are one or two arrogant atheist), but still nobody goes to the things he need explanation/proof, ie free will and source of the quran

  • max5189

    Revisiting this topic (seems to be resurfacing back after more than 6 moths!)
    Firstly, I agree with the writer specifically on blind-fully practicing without the effort to understand what one’s practices are. Thus, her quest by putting across her opinion openly so that all may gain knowledge and better understanding on the subject matter via healthy discussions here.
    The final paragraph says it all: most are too quick to judge, whereas Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) once said ” God does not judge according to your bodies and appearances but He scans your hearts and looks into your deeds”.
    Hmm.. Unless you’re the Man of Steel, I doubt you could scan another person’s heart. Heck, even IF you are, no one could look other people’s deeds from their heart!
    Continue to pursue your quest of understanding Dian.
    p/s to Bystander:You read a sentence (just one) out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book and immediately come to a conclusion of the whole book? Wow man! That’s brilliant!

    • bystander

      “You read a sentence (just one) out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book and immediately come to a conclusion of the whole book? Wow man! That’s brilliant!”

      Wrong:

      1. I QUOTE a sentence (just one) out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book.(quoting is not the same as reading)

      2. I didnt made any conclusion. Why would you think that?

      But thank you. I AM brilliant.

    • bystander

      “You read a sentence (just one) out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book and immediately come to a conclusion of the whole book? Wow man! That’s brilliant!”

      1. I QUOTED a sentence (just one) out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book.

      2. Just because i QUOTED a sentence (just one) out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book doesnt mean that this is the only sentence I read out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book

      3. When I QUOTE a sentence (just one) out of a 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapter book, it doesnt mean that I draw a conclusion about the whole book.

      4. When did I actually make an conclusion about …. at all? What makes you think that I made conclusion about the whole the book with its 6,666 sentences contained in a 30 chapters.

      5. Yes I brilliant. Thank you for that :D

  • Wong Edan

    “prove me that Quran is not from God or definitely from God” – not our job. The person who makes the claim is responsible for proving it.

    • gayung jatuh

      free will?

    • willy

      there is always people doing good thing in this world, but for good people doing evil thing there is religion inside it

  • Wong Edan

    “He “heared” a voice telling him what to do, or at least he claimed to have heared a voice that tould he what to do.” – Amazing that people still base their lives on the claims of a man who heard voices. Nowadays we lock such people up…or provide clinical care.

  • rustynails

    I saw that movie… “I Robot”

  • Voxclara

    WebEd, it is getting really tiresome that my reply isn’t published (this time it’s my reply to Fayaz Ahamed M) If any part of my reply you find offensive, you should still publish it including the edited part, surely that’s what you usually did in the past?

    —————————————————————————-

    @Fayaz Ahamed M, according to you, Allah and Mohammed are perfect and nothing is better then to follow them without question so “everyone can become good man”

    Should you also follow what mohammed did? Please read the following link and tell us whether what Mohammed did was a perfect and good examples to be emulated:

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

    Then there are Verses of the Sword, eg. Surah 9:5 which abrogates all previous verses in the Quran. Do you think these are also good and perfect examples to follow?

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/swordverse.htm

  • nazarean or christian

    i thought you are the one beaten by darren few times ago? still the same website?

    • Voxclara

      No, he never defeated me. Scroll all the way down and read my reply to Geoff below, and I quote:
      [Darren1 never defeated me. He dismissed historical facts and the Islamic scriptures because they do not support his stance. How can one argue against historical fact and what's in the Quran? You can't!]

      Anyway, regardless who defeated who, what’s that got to do with my reply or the content of the website?

      If you can refute what I said or what’s in the website then by all means do so. If you can’t then best refrain from making silly remarks.

      • leviticus

        cmon, grow up, the website is not credible to be used as scientific sources

        • Funky Faizal

          and the holy scriptures are???

        • Voxclara

          No one is talking about science except you it seems. Perhaps you should refute using evidence the content of the website instead of worrying about science and stop being childish.

  • DianKuswandini

    If you choose not to like people who don’t wear wijab, then go for it and don’t tell people to stop excercise their right of speech, as guaranteed by the Indonesian Constitution. I’m fully responsible with everything I wrote (valid identity, traceable organizations), unlike you who’re hiding behind anonymity to attack people with different views.

    • Pow

      Did I write “I don’t like people who don’t wear hijab”? I respect your decision not to wear it. I just beg you not to spread the idea of not wearing it as a permissible act in Islam. I want you to persuade people toward the true Islam. I’m sorry if I seemed to attack you. May Allah bless you :)

      • devine

        True Islam. That is your version of true Islam. Explain why in Indonesia Muslimah did not wear the hijab for hundreds of years and the fashion trend just surfaced about 12 years ago? Were they not real or “true” Muslims before?

  • weegie-boy

    “Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful”
    Then why do so many Muslims persecute others?
    Surely if you believe what you just wrote, you would tolerate all because Allah is forgiving?

    Far too much ambiguity in Islam, or at least in the interpretation of it?

  • Amber L

    Thanks for sharing your experiences. From my understaning if you are not wearing hijab because of how some Muslims potrayed hijab (the two lolly pops) then they are at fault, at the same time you are fault for using them as an exuse to not wear hijab.

    The point of the matter is if you know hijab is fard in Islam then it is fard/obligatory to practise just like salah, zakat, not drinking alcohol etc and no creations judgement and understanding of hijab should interfer with you trying to please your Creator Allah- if it does then it is shorting coming from your end and no one elses. May Allah swt gives you understanding and make
    Islam easy for you and all of us.

    . Your sister in Hijab, Amber.

  • Not Born Yesterday

    my friends,

    Koran was not a printed book handed to Mohamed in one go by god. Every time he get into a situation he gets a revelation. e.g. Infidelity…when aisha was two hours late in joining Mohamed’s caravan trail and came with a young man and was promptly accused of infidelity. Mohammed had a revelation. So the decision that you need two eye witness to prove infidelity.

    It was 249 years later that Caliph the 4th put it in the current format and have the rest of the piece meal Koran destroyed. By this time, the Islamic invaders had acquired enough knowledge conquering other high cultures and great civilizations. All this “knowledge” was already there. The Arabs were more settled. The Koran as oral poetry was converted properly edited and put in chapters as it is found today. You cannot honestly not discount that knew knowledge and poetry was not included. A book put together in a format by men from scattered pieces of oral traditions.

    Hadith is a collection of nearly 5000 practices of oral traditions deemed during Mohamed’s time. These Islamic writers disregarded nearly half of it and came out with a comprehensive Hadith as you would have it today.Yes men made.

    Tonight before you sleep just reflect how indonesian people lived 249 years ago and tell me nothing has changed and that you will change nothing.

    If you dare ask yourself questions and seek answers. And if you continue that path you may loose the faith, whichever faith you have.

    If you don’t dare I would not call you a coward. But you do not run down other faiths. Faith is personal. Simple lack of faith is if you claim to be a Sunni and by sheer numbers you displace Shiites, That is rule of a mob not faith.

    A frog in the well approach to life is not a really enriching life.

    • sevenupcoke

      hey what you did? he asked about free will and source of quran, your long statement do not talk about both of them. Freewill maunye have evidences that mohammad wrote something he didnt have previous knowledge. D you know when people know that Haman is the one who helped pharaoh to built things?

    • frog

      the frog is someone who believe the story of two hours 39 minute late of ayesha, the same with ayesha afe is 9.3 yrs old

      • Not Born Yesterday

        these are the “story” recorded by the same highly acknowledged Islamic scholars who compiled your Hadith.

  • Funky Faizal

    i personally would rather allah used his energies to stop muslims killing and
    oppressing other muslims plus other groups in his name rather than concentrate on what some view to be the subjugation of the female

    as for the hijab, well in the 21C it really should be moot, a choice and not an obligation or by force, but thats where Islam falls down really, there is no choice for many women

  • DrDez

    Semak

    as one of the arrogant (or enlightened) I would suggest the onus is upon a person with religious belief to prove, to demonstrate the existence of the omnipotent being that you and others run your lives by, especially if that group is attempting to impose its beliefs on other (like Indonesian Sunni Muslims for example).

    If you cannot then what you are believing in is purely an act of faith – faith in something you cannot see, cannot smell and cannot touch

    Unfortunately as we see day in day out that faith often leads to antagonist behavior, violence and often deadly acts – based purely on the premise ‘my god is better than your god’ or ‘my way is more holy than yours’

    This very week we have seen 9 reported cases of direct violence in Indonesia using the the above ‘faith’ as the excuse. Look around the globe to see thousands more – most often committed by Sunni Muslims

    I for one, on many occasions have willingly subjected myself to religious lessons and debates as I sought to find answers to the eternal questions – But not once in over 78 years of asking has any religious leader, teacher, scholar or believer been able to give any answer other than the same opposing deflections you have. Just because I cannot prove there is not a god does not mean there is one and of course the opposite is true.

    I do not rule out the possibility of god, all I ask is evidence that he or she exists before I am prepared to bare my life for him. Whereas you believe, you have faith in the unseen and untouchable without evidence.

    So when you make a statement ‘prove me that Quran is not from God’ I am unable to do so and nor will anyone else because before that can happen we have to prove there is a god in the first instance.

    If we cannot prove there is a god how can we prove or disprove that he or she gave the 10 commandments or the holy koran? We cannot.

    Now I know you cannot prove the existence of god, if you could I would be a believer, so it comes down to faith – faith that is in most people brought about by the social and educational norms of the society.

    Part of that social conditioning in Islam is via the head cover, it is a throwback and a justification and acceptance of mans domination over women in so many ways – now if your god likes that – well all I can say is I am glad he’s not found me

    BTW – blind belief and imposition of said belief on others is rather arrogant in my aged eyes

    • geoff oilprospector

      the quran itself is the ‘miracle of our time’, it contains facts that it must have come from a supreme being. Muhammad, a medieval arabian wont be able to arrange the quran like we have today ie: quran said Haman is the pharaoh helper and it is proven after people can read the hirogliph, the number of word yaum(day) occured 365 times, the roman were defeated at the lowest point of the earth, and lot more. No, muhammad will not be able to make it, it must have been inspired by the supreme being, its language is indeed peculiar, thats why it said that He only open the meaning to the one He wants, and unfortunately you are not the one on His list(at least till now, tomorrow only God knows it so that we say Insya Allah or God willing)

      • TalkingEid

        Sounds like Nostradmus to me

      • mauriceg

        The Romans were not defeated at the lowest point of the Earth. You should read History. If you know your geography that is the Dead Sea. Matsada, (in English Massada), high over the Dead Sea is where they had a hollow victory in which the besieged Jews all committed suicide rather than be slaughtered by the Roman soldiers.

        Which hieroglyphs: do you mean the Egyptian ones, with the aid of the Rosetta stone? And so on and so forth. Ages ago I learned a few words in Arabic, so I know the Indonesian/Arabic names for weekdays. I can’t attest to the peculiarity of the language, but I read a lot,and all authors differ in style. You have just been told (brainwashed), that a deranged horse-thief in a cave couldn’t have written this so god must have. Weak, fallacious arguments. Explain how your god predates nature, or how he/she/it ever came to be. You don’t want to answer hard questions, do you? You just brush them aside. But that is dishonest. You just take it for granted; believing six impossible things before breakfast (a quote from somewhere, I forget where). Unless and until you pin down concrete evidence of your god, sensible people won’t care. Besides, Muslims are the world’s worst examples of believers. No other faith kills, murders, maims, corrupts, cheats and lies as much as they do.

  • anna_gee

    Oh my.. It’s you who need to learn more about referring. My comment up
    there was for the writer of the article. She’s Muslim, so I assumed she
    already knows about the obligation. And which part of my statement that I don’t know the difference between hair and bossom? Funny.

    And if you read again, this article didn’t against hijab, and my comment didn’t about blaming her about her choice, I just criticized the way she blamed others. And if you read carefully, the writer even clearly stated that she’s not against hijab. So why you? I guess you’re not even a woman. So you exactly don’t have to wear hijab. Why don’t you just leave us with our own choice? Like you already said, “I believe in allowing people to make their own decisions”. So, implement it.

    • TalkingEid

      Whatever – you presume to speak for some one else when you say “You already know ….” Just one more Muslim intent on imposing their standards and their interpretations on everyone else.
      Any advice on the proper stance when praying? Arms folded or by our sides?
      No one is telling you NOT to dress how you deem is fit and proper – on the other and you and your ilk are all too keen to tell the rest of us what to do.
      I will leave you to your Islam-fascist mindset. I have better things to do that try to educate the ineducable.

    • devine

      “with our own choice”… we every of your post you demonstrate that it is actually not your own choice…

    • TalkingEid

      Im not against the hijab – it’s YOUR choice. If only you would allow everyone else the same choice but instead you drone on and on and on about how it is mandatory – and presume to speak for others when you say “You already know…” when it is perfectly clear that the writer does NOT ‘know’ any such thing. Just Islamo-fascist nonsense as usual.

  • someone

    For God sakes.. dari niatnya aja udah beda, prostitut itu pake jilbab karena emang niatnya menyamar. kl wanita muslim pake jilbab bukan buat menyamar, tapi mengikuti perintah yang ada di Al-Qur’an.

    • DianKuswandini

      emang tau dari mana niatnya menyamar? You’ve been there yourself? komentar anda mendekati fitnah.

  • Funky F

    for gods sake..có thể không có hướng dẫn nếu không có bằng chứng về thần

  • freewill maunye

    and thats why the scholars are wrong in interpreting the quran, also they were wrong in their vision of muhammad. just as simple as that, true muhammad is as depicted by quran, but if you ask scholar you will have someone maniac warmonger with crazy sex taste. you belive the moslem scholar? you are with them arent you?

  • DianKuswandini

    That’s not my excuse not to wear hijab.
    You’ve failed to read between the lines, and that’s your own problem :D

  • DianKuswandini

    1) There’s nothing against any Indonesian laws to spread my arguments in a writing. If you find my writing/article is offensive in any way, feel free to file a complaint to the authority. I’ll be honored to see you in court.
    2) It’s done and published, nothing can be done about it (and even there is…
    … who are you again? A poule mouillée? Why don’t you write another article on your own to express yourself. well, of course… if you’re courageous enough to reveal your REAL identity :D

  • devine

    Until only about 10-12 years ago almost NOBODY wore a hijab in Indonesia. So you are saying that they were all bad Muslims for the last 200- 300 years?
    A hijab is a Arabic / Middle Eastern “cultural” thing and not prescribed by the Al-Qur’an.

    So why in your opinion did Indonesians not wear the hijab… and why is it now all so important for some of you?

    • Voxclara

      Actually the hijab was prescribed by the founder of Islam and its scriptures the Quran.

      • sixsixsix

        which one? oww you can read it in the website.

        • Voxclara

          Shouldn’t be difficult to google it unless you are dyslexic.

    • Slamet Jalan

      Devine, you reiterate the same argument even from the last time I visit this article months ago. Got no response for this objection?

      Two decades ago is Soeharto regime. As a nature authoritarian, he was very sensitive to any political movement, including islamic movement that requested more islamic rules within national law. He clearly understood that islamic activists would disrupt national stability, or in contextual meaning it would threaten his throne. So he tried to dissolved this movement in several ways, one of which was hijab prohibition issued in 1982. That’s why it was difficult to find women who wore hijab in that era.

      So how about the time before 80′s.. Well, are you Indonesian? If not, what I can say is that most of Indonesians may only know Kartini or Dewi Sartika as national female patriots. But if you ask Indonesian who is HR. Rasuna Said, Soenarjati, Soekaptinah, or R.A Soekanto, I assure that they will have no idea. It is normal if they don’t, because Soeharto has erased their name from Indonesian history to brainwash next generations that we never have Indonesian moslems patriot, so no one could find their names in every single high school’s book.

      Let me introduce them to you. They are Indonesian former freedom activists, considered as the high class of intellectual in their era, and in addition, they wore hijab.

      • Deddy K.

        What you conveniently forget is the atrocities and violence also perpetrated by your so-called “high class of intellectuals of their era” or at least condoned by their “freedom fighters”. You propped these individuals on some type of pedestal just because they are muslims, but they have had as much sin (or actually in many cases much more) as Soeharto for the hard choices in order to create Indonesia. I am sorry you are ashamed to be Indonesian but not Muslim.

        The so-called “Soeharto Regime” which you labeled a Nature authoritarian was indeed sensitive to the Islamic political movement, which is the movement to destroy Indonesia as soon as it was forged into a nation, and replace it with an Islamic caliphate. Your “high class intellectuals of their era” didn’t have clean motives in their “freedom fighting.” They wanted Islamic laws which would allow them to expel all non muslims, then create a middle east in the smoldering ashes of Indonesia. (I think ulterior motives is the name of the case.)

        As long as Islam (or any religion is kept out of the state) it is safe for Indonesia, with the corruption of Islam into state affairs it has given rise to a growing radical movement which was happening before Soeharto took to power and saved us.

        Now to answer the question, democracy has been used as an excuse to push coerce (guilt or violence) radical Islamic point of views in pesantrens, schools, and especially the government. Hence the push for the, “If you are Islamic you must follow our rules, if you don’t then you are not Islamic….” strengthened by FPI on the streets, HTI and their associates on the fringes, and PKS and PPP inside the Government.

    • nyquist frequency

      can you prove to semak belukar that quran is not from god or definitely from god ? I saw lot of your argument using quran as source ie ‘A hijab is a Arabic / Middle Eastern “cultural” thing and not prescribed by the Al-Qur’an.’ Can you explain that?

      • TalkingEid

        it’s not up to devine or anyone else to prove something didn’t come from God. It’s up to the ‘god botherers’ to prove it did.

        • nyquist frequency

          he uses quran for his arguments, so he is what?

  • normalfault oil trap

    there are some logic to be followed to prove about existence or non existence of free will, also there are some logic to be followed when tryin to understand the source of quran

  • normalfault oil trap

    there are some logic to be followed to prove about existence or non existence of free will, also there are some logic to be followed when tryin to understand the source of quran

  • bystander

    Quote 1:

    I said “lazy” just for an example of “something bad”. To represent the ones who said something bad about the writer, because she chose not to wear hijab
    End Quote1

    Answer Quote 1:

    I apolopize when I missunderstood your analogy.

    Somehow I thought you wanted to bring this example to clarify why a hijab is an obligation, with_

    a.) the class being the religious community,

    b.) the teacher being god (making the rules /assignments),

    c.) the “good” students (with you one of them), who make their assignments without question, being the muslims that follow every detail that is written in the quran (without question)

    and

    c.) the writer as the “bad” (in your example labeld as lazy student) student who puts thought if the assignments are reasonable.
    again sorry if somehow I missunderstood your analogy.

    Quote 2:

    Anyway, the student might won’t take the class if he/she thinks that the class always give him/her silly assignments. It’s his/her choice to join the class or not.

    End Quote2

    Answer Quote 2
    So actually what you are saying is: If class A with a subject, a student is interested in, includes some assignments that are somehow “silly” (e.g. because they are outdated),

    it is preferable that the students just looks for another class B with the same subject but where the assignments are more to his liking / (up do date).

    Quote 3:

    But once he/she decides to join, he/she considered as a student of the class, and all the students have to follow all the rules in it.

    End Quote3

    Answer Quote 3

    So what you are saying is: instead of discuss / (improve) the quality for the classA it is better to just silently bend to the rules right?

    Ok here a little history example. In the beginning of the history of modern medicine it was required for Doctors to be able to speak or at least read ancient latin (you know the language the ancient romans used). Although the latin wasn´t being talked anymore. This made it incredible hard for many medical students who hadn´t been taught latin in school and in many cases, students who were talented in medicine, could not attend medical causes cause they could not pass the latin test. It took a long discussion until this “rule” of being able to speak latin to be able to graduate medicine was abolished (because it was silly),

  • bystander

    What you originally were doing was calling TalkingEid a racist using a terminology that is controversial, when used in a context that is in no relation to the subject “race”. TalkingEid realized that and corrected.

    IF your intention really is to:

    QUOTE:What I meant was, the word “racism” is a bit globalize now, not only about people’s biological races, but many factors also considered.

    end Quote

    Then use the right terminology instead to use a flawed one.
    I know i know the term racism is generally used in that context, (so your mistake, in using the wrong terminology is understandable, but not excusable)

  • TalkingEid

    How does this explain the number of women who board planes in other countries wearing lipstick and mini skirts, but arrive in Jakarta wearing a hijab?

  • TalkingEid

    so when do you plan to start thinking for yourself?

    • bystander

      what makes you think, that i don´t think for myself?

      • TalkingEid

        sorry bystander – I really didn’t mean YOU – I was referring to those who blindly follow the teachings of self-appointed religious ‘teachers’, (in ANY religion) rather than asking themselves a few pertinent questions, such as – “why is what I wear so ******* important?”

        • bystander

          No offense taken :D.

  • TalkingEid

    Just questions again, never answers. Normal brainwashed Muslim response.

  • TalkingEid

    If you think you words mean what you THINK they mean, not how they are defined in dictionaries, communication is impossible. Please get an education before attempting to communicate with the rest of us.
    Repeat – Islam is NOT a race. But it is always easier to play the rac card than to use logic to defend your position right?

  • Pow

    From what I’ve heard, hijab was sort of prohibited in the previous regime, that’s why the trend has just popped up recently. True Islam is what has been written in Quran and hadith. Furthermore, Q.S. 24:31 and 33:59 say it all about hijab obligation. Humans tend to be so arrogant and search for justification to rebel. May Allah bless you :)

    • devine

      prohibited in previous regime… yeah right… and the 200 years before the previous regime…? It is not in the Quran and hadith is disputed and full of interpretation issues …
      Bless you too :)

  • bystander

    Quote:

    the quran itself is the ‘miracle of our time’, it contains facts that it must have come from a supreme being.

    end Quote.

    And to what “facts” would you refer to? Please don´t tell me to read the quran for myself, because I have already done it and I didn´t find any “facts” that must have come from an supreme being.

    • geoff

      no i dont tell you to read the quran, pls do not worry, many has read it and find nothing, similar with your experience. dont read it, no problem hehe

  • Voxclara

    If your mother or grandmother are over 50 then ask them if hijab was commonly worn when they were young. Another thing, why there is hardly any hijab clad images of women in any Indon painting that’s painted more than 30 years ago? Devine is correct, there was hardly any hijab worn even during the Suharto period. Are you even an Indon ?

  • bystander

    Quote:
    quran said Haman is the pharaoh helper and it is proven after people can read the hirogliph, the number of word yaum(day) occured 365 times.

    end Quote.

    Why would that be a miracle?

    • geoff

      because muhammad and you and all of us cannot write something that happen in the future. You got it? Muhammad wrote things that he didnt have previous information. Also, does a medieval arabian knows an area as lowest point in the earth relative to the other elevation? also did muhammad arrange to have a 12 in the word month and 365 in the word day and also knows that the differences between 300 yrs of solar years and lunar years is 9 years? well im still a believer even if you said its not a miracle hehe

      • TalkingEid

        You might want to read the prophecies of Colm Kille too – they are just as accurate (or possibly more so) – so what?

  • nobody

    if Allah and Prophet Mohammed (SAW) said that girls should wear hijab then wear it plus its in the hadith so…

    • devine

      yes… if Allah did… but he didn’t. You just make a wrong interpretation…

  • Slamet Jalan

    Deddy, honestly I am so tired with claim ‘without-islam-indonesia-safe’ or otherwise. You could argue about this endlessly, but please find someone else below if you find this topic attractive.

    I posted the previous comment because devine created a point to infer that hijab was just a social phenomenon by manipulating the reason why there were only a few moslems wearing hijab in 80′s-2000, he was totally ahistoric. And how can you explain the name I mentioned ‘have had as much sin as Soeharto or more? Never observe and self-claim? So you are equally ahistoric as devine…

    I’ll happily explain who they were to you. They were the pioneer of the very first Indonesian women congress in 1928 which had the only one mission, the Independence of Indonesia. Education, teaching natives how to write and read was their main activity. By taking this method, they expected that Indonesian people could read newspapers and book which contains our founding fathers ideas and plan. They were successfull, because it was the trigger when Indonesian people demanded the Dutch Colonial a proper education right ( in which they didn’t have ). Umm.. wait, I almost forget one thing, the congress represented many groups of women in Indonesia, one of which was “Wanita Katholiek” ( Chatolic women ) that is still exist until NOW. Now can you realize that what you said ‘didn’t have clean motive’ was teribbly dirty slander?

    ______________________________________________

    Btw, concerning about how Voxclara call Indonesian with irritating word ‘Indon’, I put him as my ignore list.

    • Deddy K.

      Wait I thought you did not want to argue that point if you separate Religion and state than Indonesia would indeed be a much more safer country?
      I’m sorry was it really the trigger? I like how you pick and choose the so called trigger for Indonesia Independence. Hehehe your cute. There were many determining factors that prompting Indonesia to rise and fight for their independence.
      Yes I can say no clean motives. As in every push by any religion for “education” there is a clear motive to push their religion as the one true religion. That is always the case with missionaries going to teach ‘natives’ (like how you call our Indonesian people natives before being taught to read and write by your so called Islamic heroes) to read and write, which is to push religion. It’s okay that’s what paid for them to do it, and even your high intellects need to eat and live.
      Before Islam in Indonesia was more lenient and peaceful, with a live and let live attitude, (your religion is yours, and my religion is mine, don’t bother me and I won’t bother you, we all live in peace because my faith is strong for myself, and what you do and how you practice your faith does not insult or bother me.) Now in this current climate of “if you don’t follow my type of islam you are not muslim, you are islamophobic, etc etc” there is a much more aggressive Islam in place in Indonesia. Women who were previously Good Muslims by all accounts, then brainwashed into thinking that a hijab was mandatory or they will spend their existence in fiery pits of hell, perpetuated by these brainwashed women using this more Radical Islam train of thought to publicly look down on women who don’t wear the hijab.
      Again goes back to what I was saying earlier. The multiple methods of coercion used since the Fall of Soeharto using Democracy as shield to push their agenda forward, from PPP, PKS, PKB in the Government, HTI, FPI, FUI on the streets, radical clerics spouting jihad against non believers, and even ministers saying, “it’s your fault for not following my islam, either convert, shut up or something terrible will happen to you.” Is the main reason now a days you find more and more women wearing the Jilbab in Indonesia. Peer Pressure (from those brainwashed), Radical Muslims saying women who don’t wear jilbabs are unclean and deserve to be raped, etc etc. Sad affair.

      Where are the Muslims that truly had such a strong faith that they didn’t have to push their religion on others?

      • Slamet Jalan

        Begini ya mas, susah banget saya mau ngejelasin balik kalau apapun yang berkaitan dengan islam, entah itu aktivisnya atau apapun Anda serang balik dengan tuduhan tak berdasar kaya radikalisme yang sebenarnya sama sekali ngga berdasar dan gak sesuai dengan kejadian sejarah yang ada.

        Kan udah dijelasin gitu, kongres nya gak cuma diwakili tokoh tokoh islam, ada juga tokoh tokoh dari daerah maupun non islam. Kok bebal banget Anda ya semuanya dipukul rata bahwa yang islam lagi melakukan aksi misionaris dengan paksaan. Cara menyimpulkan macam apa itu? Ngomong ngomong tau ngga siapa ‘founding fathers’ yang saya maksud? Apa ideologinya? Apa peran – perannya dalam sejarah kemerdekaan? Ngomong ngalor ngidul keluarnya radikalisme lagi – radikalisme lagi. Coba dong jelaskan dimana radikalnya dan bagaimana kejadiaannya tercatat dalam sejarah?

        Anda ahistoris, berpikiran tertutup dan saya rasa Anda cukup bisa dianggap radikal – dengan arah yang berlawanan dengan FPI, FUI dan sekitarnya

  • bystander

    Oh good I though it was just me :D

  • bystander

    Quote:
    Because muhammad and you and all of us cannot write something that happen in the future. You got it?
    Also, does a medieval arabian knows an area as lowest point in the earth relative to the other elevation?

    end Quote

    Since there are few to no historical documents about ancient arab of that peroid of time, except the quran itself, it is hard to say what the ancient arabs knew or not. What IS know, it that the ancient arabs, muhammad included, were trading with the Eastern roman empire. It is also know that Muhammad was an accomplished and seasoned general. So it stands to reason that he would be very good at evaluating the strenghts and capabilities of armies and (as a bystander) would be able to evaluate the outcome of a battle, even of an entire war. what makes me doubt the validity of the verse as a prophesy is the given timespan of 2 -9 year. (with the 7 year the actual defeat of the persian empire). What would have been impressive:

    If the prophesy would have mentioned the EXACT date, (you know, … since god knows the future…..)

    • geoffrey

      geoff didnt talk about the persian empire, you have wrong perception.
      yes of course He can put the date, your requirement is similar with the question of the color of the heifer, you have read the quran, surely you know that story :)

      • bystander

        Fact is: He didnt put in a date. And only because the story of the heifer is similar to the “prophecy” doenst mean they relate. :D

      • bystander

        quote:

        the roman were defeated at the lowest point of the earth,

        end quote

        Yes he was. Unless i am mistaken he was referring to the Roman – Persian war. If i am mistaken: please let me know what other defeat he war referring to.

    • geoffrey

      of course He can put date per your requirement :) it is similar with the color of the heifer multiple question, you have read the quran so you know the story :D

  • devine

    Thank you for your input. But I personally still rather see our female population in traditional Indonesian cloth i.e. Kebaya…

  • geoff uk

    yes, i want to read it, also, is there a book of his prophecies? pls write me below a quote from the you told accurate book, including a chapter and number of prophecy from this colm kille. A real quran have an interlock number of arabic alphabets indicated by the beginning of chapters. Does the scripture from this colm kille have this? or, do you really have a knowledge in quran or just blatantly put words here as opposition?

    • TalkingEid

      yes – you can google it. Unlike others, I am not here to do your thinking for you.

      • geoff birmingham

        google it? i thought it is so popular like quran, old test and new test, veda, mahabharat etc. You didnt read it did ye?

  • Good,Bad and Ugly

    Yes, it is about what you believe. But when you claim that your beliefs are ‘truth’ then you are obliged to show your proof if you want to make public claims;

    or your claims are fraud and you must face the laws based on logic and proof.

  • DodolEdan

    Stupid articl, no, stupid opinion. Just a reason to do whatever the writer wants. Say, have you ever read Quran and its interpretations and also Hadith books from Bukhari? I DOUBT.

    I have.

    You can do whatever you want, I don’t care. But don’t justify whatever you want.

  • wenner deconvolution

    You are the funniest guy here, how can you know if Allah did but he didnt? You just blatantly put words as opposition, with baseless knowledge.

    • talibantabbies

      allah didn’t because he didn’t, if he did, where is he? do you have his direct number too? maybe you can give me his number and we can ask him. i believe he “told” this to a cave dweller 2000 odd years ago and everyone has to believe him or suffer some fate in the after life that cannot be proven or if we discredit his claim we have to suffer death. sounds really suspicious in my opinion.

  • TalkingEid

    watch out devine – it’s pretty clear some posters here think they have a direct line to Allah……….

  • rustynails

    No it’s stupid comment and no opinion just sprouting your particular version of brainwashing. Any reasonable person knows there are many many various interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith on this and a myriad other issues.

    It is difficult not to feel sorry for people like dodol, what a waste of a human mind.

  • Muslim and proud :)

    I am a muslim young girl and i will be wearing hijab in about 4 days. You cannot imagine how happy I am to be doing that. And no, my parents didnt forced me to wear it. I read some of the comments, and I think that it is what they say, about people in indonesia being bad muslims is very wrong. First of all, they arent bad muslims, but they dont match the most important muslim women criteria. Hijab isnt an option, it is a duty and something you have to do for your own sake. I agree with who wrote that this article is “stupid” but with a gentle word : narrow minded. You say that : then all indonesia is wrong for 300-400 years? I tell you: yes. Islam isnt for arabs, and hijab doesnt represent arabic culture. Hijab isnt a tradition, it is something just like praying daily. People automatically give themselves excuses not to wear hijab. But this beautiful hair and skin and body of yours is a gift from god, and this precious gift should be protected just as god ordered you. You can still look pretty while wearing hijab. And i really think people who give excuses to not wear it, are people who are controlled by the modern life. I went to the UK, and people there dont judge my mo, or aunts or cousins by their hijab. But people who think this is “tradional” costume for arabs doesnt really know anything about islam. People who say: throw your Quran to the garbage, dont really know what islam is, they just see what they think islam represents. Unlike how people think, that muslims hate other religions, muslims are actually very open minded, and im talking here about the right muslims, not the ones who think they are “better muslims” by hating other religions. The most important islamic criteria is believing in all the prophets before prophet muhammad and all of their books. You may think that i am very religious, but in fact i am not one of these too religious people. I comr from a normal family, that cares alot about obeying what God tells us to do. I read Quran, pray and will be wearing hijab, and in the same time, i have fun in the limits that God has put. I go to waterparks (dressed in appropritate bathing suits), parks, malls

    • bystander

      No, No no no no.

      Dont met me wrong: you can belive in talking ants, that the prophet acendet on a flying horse to paradise and that the prophet was the only one able to talk to god, for all I care. You may even believe that the article is stupid, I will respect your views.

      BUT beliving in a moral code that is over 1400 years old without a shred of a doubt, is the EXACT OPPOSITE of being open minded. Please dont put your unreason on the same shelf as my reason.

    • bystander

      quote:

      I come from a normal family, that cares alot about obeying what God tells us to do. I read Quran, pray and will be wearing hijab, and in the same time, i have fun in the limits that God has put. I go to waterparks (dressed in appropritate bathing suits), parks, malls

      end quote.

      Really? Then what about verse 33:33

      “And ABIDE in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. …

      And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.”

      the verses before and after 33:33 mostly praise mostesty and the greatness of allah.

      Again i am just a ignorant kuffar. But to me 33:33 suggests that a women should not leave the house.

      • talibantabbies

        wait… i can feel that there is going to be another re-interpretation of the quran that refute your claim very soon… you can’t win against logic that is made up as you go along

        • bystander

          quote

          wait… i can feel that there is going to be another re-interpretation of the quran that refute your claim very soon.

          end quote

          Interpretation? I thought the quran is supposed to be “truth” and “facts”. Dont tell me that you have to interprete the word of god! :D

          qoute

          you can’t win against logic that is made up as you go along

          end quote

          1. ) how else is logic made up?

          2.) what makes you think is is made while “going along”?

    • devine

      Hahaha; “But this beautiful hair and skin and body of yours is a gift from god, and this precious gift should be protected just as god ordered you”… So make sure that nobody (except a very few) can see your beautiful hair and skin…. why did God give you these attributes if he does not want them to be seen? Looking forward to your explanation…

      • Guest

        To see your obedience. That’s it.

        • devine

          Oh… I see… the I am better than others answer. Why? Because God loves everybody EQUALY and not only those who put on a veil…

  • Remington

    I’m more concerned about the state of women’s hairy legs in Indonesia. That’s the one part of the body they should be covering up. Do they not know how to use a razor?

    • mauriceg

      Are you just saying that to sell more of your shaving tackle?

  • MadWorld

    By saying that the sunnah & hadith is not man made, compiled from the tradition of the yew, christian & pagan arab, is comparable by believing that the sun circles around the Earth.
    Typical islam, believing it is the lingua sacra said by Muhammad. End of discussion !!! By not believing the holy words is comparable to blasphemy, Amen.

  • talibantabbies

    the more you argue about religion and its laws the more you realise that its all just made up. i was really religious once and kept arguing with people who are more liberal until to the point where i decided to dig real deep into religion and force myself to ask questions about my faith and the inconsistencies surrounding it. i finally came to an epiphany that only men would be so concerned about what other men wears, eats or say that they make up gods and spread its fear to make others fall in line.

    Just look at all the pretentious actresses that put on the hijab and plays religious dramas during the fasting months. dirty candy wrapped up in nice packaging is still dirty candy.

    • bystander

      Quote

      the more you argue about religion and its laws the more you realise that its all just made up

      end quote.

      No they wont realise. If they would realise, we wouln´t have this conversation:D

  • talibantabbies

    we do know that the quran was created by Muhammad who claims that god gave it to him… him alone… and he uses that fact to force people around him to wage war against people who were against him and commit atrocities claiming it is the wish of god, people who were at that time not educated, who were very ignorant on the science of things, people who were fearful of ‘god’ as they have no understanding of how things came about. And so the fraud is propagated over centuries and it becomes the truth. for many muslims this is the truth and will never question it just because it says in the quran that who ever questions it faces death, a book that comes from 1 man that he says god gave to him…no witness at all… are u slowly seeing what i am getting at??

    now we imagine a scenario in modern times, i were to come out of a cave say from central java. i were to hold up a book, written by me, and my claim is that god gave me the vision, the vision to create this book of law and to govern men with this book and that i am the chosen one among all you lowly beings, i am chosen to tell you what to eat or wear or how you should behave if not you suffer the wrath of god or you face death if you dare question me. the law allows me to have many wives and treat them not as equal, that they should be covered up as they are objects and makes men horny like the devil if not covered. I suspect none will believe me but drag me out and beat me to death.

    nobody in this century will ever again believe another person who claims the vision of god… why, because we have came a long way in scientific discovery and incredible human intellectual evolution that makes us question the things around us constantly. as more time passes and men’s intelligence increases, they will pick apart everything that is not consistent and continuously find solutions for the betterment of society and its people. religious people will become fewer and fiercer in their defense of their religion and will claw harder to stay relevant in a society that no longer needs them as they continue to impede the progress of human advancement. when all wars end and the dust settle into the rubble all that will be left standing is the truth… that men are truly alone in this universe and we will never truly understand our short existence in the grand cosmic scheme of things.

  • Ray

    To Dian, I wear the hijab but I also hate more than anything the people who use the dirty candy example. It’s insulting, and in fact it would probably deter most women who would consider hijab from wearing. It’s not a good approach or example, especially the attitude that some Muslims have, the “I’m more Muslim than you” attitude. I’d like to say don’t let people like that discourage you or change your perspective about the religion. There will always be people from any religion or background that will try to belittle others for the sake of showing that they are better – when they aren’t.

    If I’ve learned anything over the past few years of my life it’s that we should not judge people too quickly, because there’s always more than meets the eye. If you want to understand what real Islam is, look at the scriptures and the prophet’s life – don’t look at the flawed people who practice it wrongly.

    One question I wonder about though is, does God really care if we wear it or not? Being punished on the day of judgment for something that isn’t harming anyone seems too harsh. Then again, we’re all trying to learn and understand more about the world each day that goes by. We should all do what we believe in.

    • Voxclara

      I totally agree with you that (If you want to understand what real Islam is, look at the scriptures and the prophet’s life) I also agree that there is little merit in belittling and insulting others for whatever purpose.

      I wonder if you have thoroughly read through your scriptures the Quran including the Hadith and the Sunnah of your prophet. If you have why not share what you think ‘real Islam’ is. Whose version is the closest to the real Islam? Wahhabism, Salafism or the FPI version?

  • Benjamin Joseph

    thanks for tellin history, the roman indeed defeated at the lowest point of the earth area, you read to much and get twisted, Geoff didnt talk about the jews, he talked about the true non deviated moslem victory.
    Thanks for telling that you learn arabic, can you tell me the one who has brainwashed me ?
    Sorry, I do not explain God, human seek His explanations in nature. I also will not add any talk about the gematrical function of arabic alphabets in Quran or even sayin about the related number of related things in Quran as continued proofs that Muhammad the medieval arabian cannot make Quran, your limited brain will explode.
    Of course what Geoff has put were not concrete evidences, you decide and you are free to decide(thats what quran said).
    The deviated moslem and deviated christian are the world’s worst examples of believers. No other faith kills, murders, maims, corrupts, cheats and lies as much as they do.

    One thing, you do not have to read too much, God evidences are simple and easy. But if you ask deviated moslem, youll get horrible.

  • claravox

    i also encourage ye to cross checking all the related words and statements in bible so you can realize that even contradiction will not put you away from polytheist thinking. Compare to quran, bible is winner for contradictive teaching. How is your debate with darren? he put you in the hole didnt he?

    • guest

      blind people argues with blind people about something they never experience/see will never result anything

      • bystander

        quote
        blind people argues with blind people about something they never experience/see will never result anything

        end quote

        .. says the blind….

  • bystander

    quote
    If you want to understand what real Islam is, look at the scriptures and the prophet’s life
    end quote

    Didn´t the prophet go to war alot?

  • indri

    Dear @diankuswandini:disqus,
    Highly appreciate your brave statement and feeling grateful that you stand your ground of what you are believing. I believe that religion is an individual commitment to God, not to others.

    And thank you, your article also answers my questions, I am non-moslem female, been traveling in some exotic and also modern countries in our time. One of the most exotic ones are Turkey and Egypt, modern ones as the US or our close neighbour Australia… both share one thing in common that not all moslem women wear hijab. (Some might not be consistent, like take it off or put it on before the plane lands, depending on the destination). Now I see it that women have choice as men, and if we bring this to broader perspective as human we might have to adapt in many ways, but not necessarily adopting it as ours…
    As for Indonesians, we are a democratic secular country, with the largest moslem population, think we should be proud for this. think we should not be trying too hard to be accepted, think we should just be who we are. we are Indonesians.

  • Muslimah

    Dear Muslimah.. At the time when your soul would be taken away .. You would be covered from head to toe before laying down in the ground.. Dont let that day be your first and the last time to be dressed in hijaab..

  • marfulan

    Dear Sister,
    Thank-you so much for writing this article and at this time. Last night I was praying alongside an Indonesian sister during Taraweeh, afterwards when I greeted this sister with Salaams she did not return it but did go into a lecture on how I should wear socks in the mosques when praying, that it is okay for men not to, but women are obligated to. When I told her that , in all the places I lived in the world and muslims I had encountered none had told me I was olbligated to wear socks while praying. I was otherwise dressed appropriately in loose modest clothing. I had never seen this women in our mosque before.
    At the end of the day, it does not matter whether or not I have socks on my feet, what matters is what is in my heart while praying. I just never get the fixation these people have on some of the minor details that add to the long list of Islamic rules that provide more of a distraction from what is real, our orientation towards Allah.

    • Voxclara

      If you think what is real is orientation towards Allah then you can’t pick and choose from his words (the Quran) as you please. It’s not a smorgasbord. You must follow all his commandments including the killing of the kafirs (non believers). Try these verses:

      9:123 “O you who believe, fight those of the unbelievers near you and let them see how harsh you can be. Know that Allah is with the righteous.” (Fakhry’s translation)

      9:73 “O Prophet, fight [j-h-d] the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and what a terrible fate!” (Fakhry)

      • japeth sem

        fight if they attack you, no compulsion in religion, you are spreading hate to moslem using deviated understanding, are you a moslem ?

  • tralala

    why only muslimah?

    how about men? since they’ll be buried too — covered from head to toe in that white kafan cloth, just the SAME like women. shouldn’t they wear hijab as well then? :p :p

  • Sonia

    Dear Sister,
    Thank Allah I came across your page, I’m a new Muslim I reverted last month and my struggle has been unbelievable hard, before reverted I was afraid to say the shahada because I didn’t want to wear the Hijab because I was afraid people would look at me differently, once reverting I wear my hijab with pride and I’ve received quite a lot of stick from the Muslim community for being Muslim everyone wants to question my intentions and why I’ve suddenly chosen to become Muslim – many people have refused to talk to me now that I’m Muslim and question if I’m still the same person, I often end up in tears and cry my heart out to Allah because things get so hard but I know that I’ll be rewarded even more for my struggles and that’s exactly what keeps me going..a lot of Muslim sisters say ‘mash-Allah if you need anything I’m here’ when they hear I’ve become Muslim and think their duty is done because they said Mash-Allah, I often feel alone with no one to turn to without people judging me so I turn to Allah and cry to him, my prayers are always answered because Allah doesn’t place a burden on anyone who cannot handle it…now I want to address the situation of this guy with the candy conspiracy, if he had two candies and unwrapped one then threw them both on the floor which one would you pick up and eat? The answer should either! Because even though the piece of candy that was unwrapped before threw on the floor was dirty, picking that piece of candy up and running it under the cold tap makes it clean doesn’t it? It’s like if we perform whudu then step in dog stools does that mean we cannot ever pray again? No it means we can wash our feet with water and that makes them clean again! (Re performing whudu aswel) So what I’m saying sister is not wearing hijab does not define the Muslim you are, you can put hijab on and ask for forgiveness then just like washing the candy under the tap, your sin is washed away because Allah is merciful and wants us to ask for forgiveness from him! Please don’t let what the community say affect your choice on hijab..listen to ‘Khalid Yasin’s talk on hijab’ he says ‘if someone came into your house and said let me see your money, pearls, diamonds and let me see your pin code to your bank, would you show them that? No and why because there precious, that’s the very reason us Muslims women cover our heads because we are more precious to Allah then diamonds or pearls’..My friends have this talent where they can look at a person and automatically tell whether their Pakistani, Indian, Bengali, etc. I don’t have that talent and whenever I walk into a room filled with women the only people I look for is women wearing hijab because I know their my sisters regardless of being Bengali, Pakistani, Indian, Jamaican etc. they are the same as me because we are all Muslim and we will all return to our creator one day..what I’m trying to say is how do you tell if a mans a Muslim? Look for a beard or a hat? Not all Muslim men have a beard and not all of them wear a hat because these acts are Sunnah which means they are optional and not compulsory but with us Muslim women Allah blessed us with a uniform (hijab + jilbab) so people can recognise us as Muslim women and respect that..wearing hijab means your recognised as a sister of islam and an inspiration to many, i know for sure before reverting i looked to muslim sisters who wore hijab an jilbab for inspiration…sister by all means ignore every word I’m saying because Allah knows your intentions and you may not want to wear hijab but I’m simply sharing the message with you because I don’t want you to have to answer to Allah why you didn’t want to wear your hijab, ignore people who say you aren’t Muslim because you don’t wear the hijab (because you are my Muslim sister regardless) he shall be held accountable for classifying as unclean like an open candy threw on the floor)..but remember Allah’s watching you and you have a duty sister, Mash-Allah your very brave for sharing your post, I’ll keep you in my dua’s sister, if you ever need any support feel free to email me on ‘Sonia-Ali-94@hotmail.co.uk’ Allah has surrounded you with sisters who support and want to help you, Im sure I’m only one of many! Xxx

  • Mohammad

    To ray, it’s not the fact that wearing a hijab is just some type of command, it is for the sake of Allah, but to protect you from the gaze of men, Now a days i can see why this has been such a big deal, we as a world have become more aroused and more pursued by the women that do not cover. “We all as humans understand that women are perceived differently and it’s been proven for a fact” I am not trying to be on the offense of this, but this is a value that is generally for the sake of protection, for insecurity and for Allah (swt).

    I completely understand otherwise, but inside I believe in Islam and it’s protection towards all humankind. So you are absolutely right when it comes to whether or not this will depict your afterlife. This is just one sin committed everyday, but ask yourself is it worth it on a regular basis, or on Ramadan where you “should” completely rid yourself from all sin. “We all should do what we believe in” or “we all should do what is right”

    • bystander

      quote
      ….but to protect you from the gaze of men…. but this is a value that is generally for the sake of protection, for insecurity and for Allah…
      end quote:

      Questions:
      1.) how is the hijab protecting from the gaze of men? If the women (with or without hijab) is walking outside, men can still see her.
      2.) Why is being seen a bad thing?
      3.) What do you mean by “insecurity”?

      quote
      I completely understand otherwise, but inside I believe in Islam and it’s protection towards all humankind

      end quote

      Questions: So what is Islam protecting you from?
      1. Sickness?
      2. War?
      3. Misery?
      4. Discrimination?
      5. Korruption?
      6. Hunger?
      7. Oppression?
      8. Offence?
      9. Murder?

      quote
      We all should do what we believe in” or “we all should do what is right

      end quote

      Nice one.. and very idealistic almost naive. Be careful what you suggest.:
      1. Terrorists (no matter what religion or cause or race) believe in hat they were doing, and believe it to be right.
      2. Dictators believe in hat they were doing, and believe it to be right.
      3. Thiefs believe in what they were doing, and believe it to be right.
      4. And some governments believe in finding a women, who was raped, being guilty of adultery, and believe it to be right.

  • Rarebreed

    “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to guard their private parts and not to show their adornments except that of it which normally shows. They shall cover their cleavage with their ‘khimar’. They shall not show their adornments except in the presence of their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, their slaves, the male attendants who have no sexual desire and the children who are yet to attain awareness of women’s nakedness. They shall not strike their feet so as to reveal details of their hidden ornaments. You shall repent to God all you believers, so that you may succeed.”24:31

    Do we see the Arabic words ‘shaar’ (hair) or ‘raas’ (head) in 24:31? The answer is no.Are there any words in 24:31, or anywhere in the Quran, which address women and which say in plain words “cover your shaar (hair) or raas (head)? The answer once again is no.However, traditional scholars and Imams insist that God issued such a command for women to cover their hair and they refer to 24:31 to make such claim.The fact that the words ‘hair’ and ‘head’ are not found in 24:31 should be sufficient for any unbiased reader to conclude that there cannot be a command to cover parts of the body if these parts are not mentioned in the first place.Nevertheless, traditional Muslim scholars manipulated the words in 24:31 in order to enforce the covering of the hair on women, but in reality they are enforcing their culture on people and claiming is it Islamic!It is thus the aim of this paper to analyse 24:31 in detail. In the light of the Quran it can be shown that their claims are all based on manipulated interpretations of the text in 24:31.

  • bystander

    Just as a reference. Further down in the discussion, someone called: anna_gee

    was arguing that the ‘khimar’ was some earlier version of the hijab.

  • bystander

    So far I counted around 100 verses calling to fight the unbelivers. In theri context some are defensive some are agressive.

    • vvoron

      Considering that Muhammad and his followers were in constant threat from the various tribes inhabiting the Arabian peninsula at that time, I’d say the quotes are defensive. One particular quote from the Quran says: “[Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:90)

  • Darren1

    Then how do you explain those quotes from the Quran?

    [There shall be no compulsion in religion. Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing] ( Al-Baqarah 2:256)

    [If it had been your Lord's will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?] (Yunus 10:99)

    [And if they surrender themselves unto Him (i.e. God), they are on the right path; but if they turn away – behold, thy duty (O Muhammad,) is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.] (Aal `Imran 3:20)

    [Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto
    the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you
    turn away, then know that Our Messenger’s only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him].] (Al-Ma’idah 5:92)

    [But if they turn away [from thee, O Prophet, know that] We have not sent thee to be their keeper: thou art not bound to do more than deliver the message [entrusted to thee] .] (Ash-Shura 42:48)

  • Amme

    Your faith in God counts. We will be accounted for individually not as family or corporately but as an individual.

    • mauriceg

      You make assumptions that there is a god. No faith needed. No silly dressing up, and worrying about what others think. That should give you an opportunity to figure out that helping other people (not sky pixies), who are worse off than you, makes a difference. Of course, now no deity is looking down at you to see how pious or adequately covered you are. Please use the brain you were born with.

      • japethtwelvetribes

        you make assumption there is no god, wrong assumption though

        • TalkingEid

          Prove it.

          • japethtwelve tribes

            japeth is not your servant, nor your slave

          • mauriceg

            Proof for the supposition of an ineffable, unreachable, unknowable, uncreated, creator of the Universe and its contents is necessary for those of us who can still think. It might be OK for those who have no analytical or critical faculties left after generations of blind acceptance of whatever nonsense the local imam felt obliged to dispense, but just saying something is so does not make it true. There are also millions of people who draw comfort from the idea. But that still doesn’t make it so. Maybe I would like to believe in fairies or Hobbits because it makes me feel good. These beings are just as fictional as your god, only you just won’t see it. Also this being’s instruction manuals for humanity are awfully written, full of contradictions, polemics, and hatred. You would have thought he/she/it could have done better, especially since most religions claim their particular creator is the one true creator, and millions of people have died for that, and continue to at this very moment, especially in the Muslim world.

            ‘Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence’, to quote Carl Sagan. (Google for him if you’ve no idea who he was, and lasting shame on you if you didn’t). And there are apparently still clerics who will insist the sun goes round the earth. Obviously a tiny sun. I bet they are hoping no-one they tell that to can read, use a PC or watch telly.

        • mauriceg

          @japethtwelvetribes – the onus is on you and all other believers to demonstrate that your invisible deity does indeed exist. There is no evidence for his/her/its existence, and just saying an assumption is wrong, makes you look foolish. In the world of dialog between adult humans, it is usual to provide some tangible evidence. Most of the stuff from your holy book was written before the advent of scientific knowledge and methods. Now science and technology has scotched the old ideas about a ‘flat earth’, how our world is four thousand five hundred million years old; that life is nearly that old (three thousand nine hundred million years or so); that living creatures evolve; the understanding of the processes that power the sun and other stars etc etc. Demonstrable, testable theories and hypotheses are the cornerstone of science. They stand or fall according to results of tests and more tests. Your ability to send your posting via advanced electronics is evidence that we are doing something right. Mediaeval ideas about a creator, or heaven and hell, or Adam and Eve are just that. Part of mankind’s quest for meaning; the first attempts to understand the world, but also ideas that were usurped by unscrupulous leaders to control their uneducated populations. Today that is still manifestly the case in the Muslim world, where superstition, credulity and simple-minded dependance on a so-called holy book’s interpretation of a long-discredited cosmology are substitutes for an intelligent, educated populace, free to think their own unhindered thoughts.

    • dingus

      And is covering up what God gave you being a good person?

  • Sasa

    Writer doesn’t justify the right or wrong of not wearing hijab. She wrote to ask not to be discriminated just because she is not wearing the hijab.

  • S.AL W.

    Purity (in heart and mind) is priceless, our ibadah should cleanse our self and value our self toward Allah SWT. Hijabers or non hijabers still won’t guarantee go to Heaven, and egotistical men or women who “think they are better Muslim (someone who submissive to God) than others also won’t guarantee go to Heaven if their heart and mind are still dirty with their egotistical approach toward others. Our intention, balance in life and harmony among others and worship to God in daily life are what most likely count. Insya Allah…
    Guess what…unfortunately Indonesia, or our “right-next-door” neighbor countries, or one of the countries in Middle East is NOT the most submissive-toward-God community on Earth, scientists found out for the last 5 years now. So, think again folks, what did we do wrong…?

  • Kembang Tahu

    I don’t think she meant it as a justification, more like a defense from prosecution of others. Have you, DodolEdan, UNDERSTOOD the Quran and its interpretations and also Hadith books from Bukhari? I doubt.

  • mumble

    My personal opinion about this and has nothing to do about religion or God . Indonesian woman look better without hijab who hide their beauty behind it because of the society value you as less . I saw it everyday that person who wear hijab with bad behavior and even broke the law even commit corruption. Before hijab was popular, woman of Indonesia always dress decent non provocative and beautiful.Indonesian culture so rich and outsider like to visit and see that. Copying Arab culture and dress like them did not sit well with me. Be Indonesian because we are, what else there for us if always following somebody else country habitual dress. I think the All mighty God want us to be equal in regard of us as human, man and woman, and rules should be for everyone. Muslim can do anything they want providing you are a man. I wonder how they feel if woman allows to have more than one husband, or man wear hijab too.

  • japethtwelvetribes
  • gateofalexander

    wow u look smart, are these now popular sciences so i can easily know the universe 13.82 billion yrs and falling muon feels the time is relative aha….Quran said that earth was ready for life in the fourth stages from six total stages of universe evolution, so if it is really 13.82 then a supporting life earth is 4.6. Wow, me and you are just nothingness compared to 13.82B. I have to be humble, i know nothing :)

  • Voxclara

    You are obviously deficient in the reading comprehension department. Why is quoting the Quran equals to spreading hate? Are saying those quranic verses are hateful?

  • rehan mateen

    first you understand islam and hijaab properly and rhen say something..and you have no right to interfare in the law of allah.dont think about the candies and all just think hijab is order of allah.

  • rehan mateen

    READ THIS OPEN YOUR EYES.AND STOP CALLING YOU A MUSLIM

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu’minin (R.A)

    : The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who has reached puberty unless she wears a veil.

    [Kitab Al-Salat of Sunan Abu-Dawud. 064; al-Tirmidhi, 377]

    Allah does not accept the prayer of a female who has reached the age of puberty except if she is wearing a head covering (khimaar).”

    This was recorded by al-Tirmidhi, Ahmad, Abu Dawud and ibn Majah. Sahih aljam’e 2/1280

    =====================================================================================

    Verses and hadeeth about Correct Hijaab

    Verses that have to do with hijab:

    1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful”

    [al-Noor 24:31]

    2 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them. And Allaah is All-Hearer, All-Knower”

    [al-Noor 24:60]

    “Women past childbearing” are those who no longer menstruate, so they can no longer get pregnant or bear children.

    We shall see below the words of Hafsah bint Sireen and the way in which she interpreted this verse.

    3 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

    [al-Ahzaab 33:59]

    4 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “O you who believe! Enter not the Prophet’s houses, unless permission is given to you for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation. But when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken your meal, disperse without sitting for a talk. Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allaah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not (right) for you that you should annoy Allaah’s Messenger, nor that you should ever marry his wives after him (his death). Verily, with Allaah that shall be an enormity”

    [al-Ahzaab 33:53]

  • rehan mateen

    A woman is commanded in Islam not to come too close to men. She is not, however, prohibited from going to places where men are present as long as she does not approach them or place herself in a position where she is alone with them.

  • Agung Syahputra

    Whatever floats on your boat.

  • Maria

    @4b0fa873c5fe0269878ae77996d7a13e:disqus

    well sister Allah is our creator, we can’t ask Allah ”why He has done so and so” It’s Allah’s will. But whatever Allah does there is Hikmah behind it; as Allah said in the Noble Qur’an Allah want to test us, the life is a test so He has created men like this, He simply wanna test them by this. They will be questioned for their actions and behavior. Anyway, you should wear Hijab for Allah who has commanded it.

    wassalam :)

  • love allah

    And why do you not believe in Allah while the Messenger invites you to believe in your Lord and He has taken your covenant, if you should [truly] be believers? (Surah Hadid verse 8)
    On the Day you see the believing men and believing women, their light proceeding before them and on their right, [it will be said], “Your good tidings today are [of] gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein you will abide eternally.” That is what is the great attainment.(Surah Hadid Verse 12)
    On the [same] Day the hypocrite men and hypocrite women will say to those who believed, “Wait for us that we may acquire some of your light.” It will be said, “Go back behind you and seek light.” And a wall will be placed between them with a door, its interior containing mercy, but on the outside of it is torment.(Surah Hadid Verse 13)
    The hypocrites will call to the believers, “Were we not with you?” They will say, “Yes, but you afflicted yourselves and awaited [misfortune for us] and doubted, and wishful thinking deluded you until there came the command of Allah . And the Deceiver deceived you concerning Allah .(Surah Hadid Verse 14)
    So today no ransom will be taken from you or from those who disbelieved. Your refuge is the Fire. It is most worthy of you, and wretched is the destination.(Surah Hadid Verse 15)
    Has the time not come for those who have believed that their hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their hearts hardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient.(Surah Hadid Verse 16)

    So my dear sister i am just warning you but i am not forcing you

  • love allah

    I love to wear Niquab!!!!!!!!

  • imoet

    In that case: Men should wear Hijab !

  • tahugejrot

    mini skirt … bikini …. are import fashion too ….
    what’s your point ?

  • Maria

    Who told you in Islam Men & women are not equal? And here what do you mean by “equality” ? Define “equality” and please tell me how it is related with wearing hijab? we are talking about Hijab not equality. These two are different things.. It’s like I’m talking about food and you’re about weather.

  • justback

    why is it frustrating and irritating? A hijab does not make you better. If you want everybody to wear one why do you want to exclude some folks? They are people too and they are there to satisfy the “equal” men…

  • Maria

    A man must cover from the navel up to and including his knees. And should lower his gaze. This is the hijab for men.

    Men and women doesn’t have same physical features thats why there is difference in their Hijab, there should be, It’s a common sense.

    • justback

      If it was common sense we would not have this discussion…

    • justback

      So tell me then in what way hair from men are different from those of women???
      We are talking about the hijab here not about walking around naked or half naked…

  • Never Ask

    Nun’s take the choice to be nuns and with it the headgear. Are you saying the ladies below have the same choice?

    In Pakistan last week A cleric cut his wife into pieces for refusing to wear a veil and sending their children to school. He deemed his action the best way to “punish his wife for rebelling against Allah’s orders”.
    He wrote that he wanted all women to learn from their example.

    He said he had not wanted his children to study at a school. He said Farzana Bibi had enrolled their children into an English medium school against his will. He said he had wanted to punish her for that, too.

    He said he had been telling her to cover her face with a veil when she stepping outside into the yard , but she had not listened.

    He also wrote that he did not want to be responsible for her sins and thus killed her.

    Is this the equality you Maria talks about? There are millions of women violently oppressed using Islam

  • hw0388@nkios.com

    justback

    I Know that Allah does not judge people on what they wear but ALHAMDULILAAhhhhhhhhh I AM WEARING A NIQUAB ALHAMDULILAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I AM VERY HAPPYYYYYYYYYY THAT I AM WEARING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • justback

      Good if you are happy… would you be happy too not wearing it???
      I dont think real happiness has anything to do with what kind of cloth you wear…

      • en0376@nkios.com

        My Dear
        Do you ever find happiness in doing a good action? the answer is after we did the action then you will find it, Because Allah said that if we obey him he will reward us in this world and the next and he will make us feel more happy, and those who disobey him the will only have a short time to enjoy this life and the next they will gain NOTHING!

  • Cranberry

    If men and women are equal in Islam, why can’t women have more than one husband? Women are physically more able to handle more than one man than any man can handle more than one woman. Women are not equal when they are forced to have genital mutilation so they no longer experience pleasure. Women are not equal when they are forced to cover their face and bodies merely to protect men from weakness. If a man is so bothered by the skin of a woman, perhaps, he needs to see a psychiatrist. Why not pray to your God for some self control and restraint?

    In Islam women are nothing but property like they were before the time of Christ. So many Indonesian Muslim women in America can’t do a thing without their husband because they can’t drive or speak English. These poor women have no life skills or parenting skills; they don’t know how to tell their children to do their homework or to clean their own rooms. I tried to help a woman with three children, she’s stuck at home all day with three children, she doesn’t speak English, drive a car, or know basic math. Her children don’t socialize with any Americans because her husband forbids it. Her Indonesian Islamic husband who drives a cab, beats her daily and he has a mistress who he pays for as well. The Islamic Indonesian woman is already living in Hell, whether she covers her face or not.

    Women in Indonesia should be more concerned about the corruption, illiteracy and poverty in their country than whether or not to wear a hijab. There are hypocrites in every religion.

    • tahugejrot

      You took some bad cases and then generalizing it … What’s the point?
      Why can’t women have more that one husband ?? … You must be kidding ..aren’t you ??

      • justback

        I don’t think he is kidding? The talk is about equality and you should answer why the women are not allowed to do the same as man. Please explain….

    • en0376@nkios.com

      My Dear listen to me carefully I am a person who is NOT oppressed in my Islam I Practice it everyday and one of my CHOICE is to wear the NIQUAB.
      do you ever see a modestly woman how dos she look she don’t be near boys and this and that, and what about an immodest she dress like she is almost naked and she is HOT and you will find a lot of boy-friends around her don’t you think that Islam protect a woman!?
      let me tell you this
      a man from Saudi-Arabia said his real driver-license (As long he did NOT fall int accident) Is a lady he said that one time he remember that his wife is in the car wile he was driving and the police stop him but when the police see his wife he let him go (WHY, BECAUSE TEHRE IS A WOMAN IS THIS NOT RESPECT!?)

    • en0376@nkios.com

      My Dear I was going to answer all of doubt in one comment but it is too long so I put separate

      My Dear you said that, Indonesian Muslim women in America can’t do a thing without their husband because they can’t drive or speak English you also said that These women have no life skills or parenting skills; they don’t know how to tell their children to do their homework or to clean their own rooms

      let me tell you this it is obligatory(wajib) upon them to learn, Allah make it obligatory on to learn and if she is in-need of the community like being a doctor, Nurse then her husband can’t prevent her from being one ok!

      driving is HALAL and if she make a law at the time of her marriage then he CAN’T break the law that she make as long it is halal

  • human2

    So many Muslim women say this. My reply is always. Try taking it off. See the reactions of your neighbors, your husband and your friends. Do not tell them you are doing it as an experiment. See their reactions, see how understanding they are and indeed how comfortable you feel, see if your choice is indeed a choice or something which now you no longer have power over….

    • en0376@nkios.com

      @disqus_eJM5h8Q9nb:disqus

      My Dear,
      You Have NOT yet reply to my question why?
      Is it too hard for you to answer?
      taker Bye :)

      • human2

        I did try to reply to your question but I guess my comments upset someone at JG and it was deleted. I will tone it down and try again. My reply was “no” A jilbab does not protect women. Why not you ask? The answer is very simple. If what you said was true and covered women mean there is no temptation and therefore men can control themselves. However the rape statistics in Islamic countries are through the roof. The stats are quite horrific and they exclude the numbers of married women who are forced to have sex with their husbands. This is not seen as a crime as they are married.

        It seems that covering women does nothing to deter rape. The only way to create a safe world for women is to educate men to control themselves around women no matter what they wear. Men should be conditioned to see women as equals whether wearing a bikini or nothing at all. Respecting women does not mean we have to control and confine women to wear certain clothes or to only interact with certain people. Respecting women is treating them as equal under all circumstances and in my case I put my wife before me in everyway. I Hope one day you can open your mind to the fact that women respond to respect and love in amazing ways. They will love you so much more strongly then if they simple fear breaking your rules.

  • human2

    My God respects all women whether clothed or in their birthday suits. My God forgives, my God excepts and embraces differences, my God sees men as being able to control their urges amongst women even when alone and by themselves. I respect my God… Blindly obeying without question is a dangerous way to live your life my advice is you live but once don’t let you life be controlled by a book written by men for men to the detriment of women.

  • Never ask

    You demonstrate the problem with Islam perfectly. Utopia, like heaven is a dream and it is at odds with the daily reality for many Muslim women. Many who live a life of violence and oppression, justified by Islamic teachings.

    Then you offer the standard cop out, ‘those who behave badly are misinterpreting the words’ at least you never said ‘they are not real Muslims’ another standard excuse.
    These have been used to excuse genocide, bombers, murderers, attacks on other groups, on other Muslims and so forth as long as I can remember.
    What I never see is any general action against groups, like the FPI for instance, by those like you who preach this Utopian message

    Your post BTW is an almost word for word copy and paste from
    http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php

    At this point I withdraw

  • Never Ask

    In fact you obey the men who represent him…

  • Never Ask

    For women – woven short skirts, sarongs, open shirts, no shirts are the traditional wear of Indonesians across the archipelago dating back to pre Islamic days and in many places still is.

    THAT is your clothing cultural heritage. Not the hijab
    Even in Java it was a fairly common thing to see the women in the fields with bare breast when I first arrived here 30 odd years ago, the practice continues in many parts of the nation.
    In North Africa and Pakistan too it was common to see women without the headscarf until the mid 1970′s before KSA money and ideology started to influence Islam. (For the worst)
    It is a self defeating argument to suggest the hijab or other Arabic wear for men and women are our cultural heritage because Tahu/just et al – they are not. In fact the bikini and mini skirts are more closely aligned to your heritage than the full covering Arab attire
    Traditional clothing tends to develop very much in line with the climate. In Arabia it is dry and gritty with huge temp swings – they needed to cover. In Indonesia it is hot and sweaty and people needed their skin to be free

  • justback

    Simply not true…

  • justback

    Of course it is related to equality. Because hair of men and woman are the same while women are required (in your opinion) have to hide them away…

  • justback

    They don’t have the same rights, an that is hence not equality…

  • hijabi

    May Allah guide you to wear hijab sis. Regarding that candy story, don’t take it personally as it is only an example. Hijab is indeed muslimah’s obligation to Allah. It is wajib. If you don’t wear it now, at least dress modestly and have an intention that someday Insha Allah you will wear it.

  • justback

    Imagine how many poor people you could support / help with the billions…

    • en0376@nkios.com

      @justback
      they may NOT Gave me the billions if I said that I am not going to take it off, they may say it is wast of time if the gave me the billions and they gain nothing from it lol talk to you later.
      Always have a smile :)

  • Voxclara

    Women are not equal to men in Islam.

    Source: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Women_are_Deficient_in_Intelligence
    “Prophet Muhammad’s declared that the majority of the inhabitants of Hell are women.[1] When asked why, he said it was because they are deficient in intelligence and religion, and because they are ungrateful to their husbands. Although Muslim apologists and female Muslims use a lot of creative arguments to explain away Muhammad’s declarations about women, they do not stand up to scrutiny. Here we will present evidence showing Muhammad’s belief that all women are less intelligent than their male counterparts; as well as examine and refute the common Muslim claims about the ahadith in question.”

    From the Hadith:
    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri
    On ‘Id ul Fitr or ‘Id ul Adha Allah’s Apostle (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, “O people! Give alms.” Then he went towards the women and said. “O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women).” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for it?” He replied, “O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray.” Then he left. And when he reached his house, Zainab, the wife of Ibn Masud, came and asked permission to enter It was said, “O Allah’s Apostle! It is Zainab.” He asked, ‘Which Zainab?” The reply was that she was the wife of Ibn Mas’ub. He said, “Yes, allow her to enter.” And she was admitted. Then she said, “O Prophet of Allah! Today you ordered people to give alms and I had an ornament and intended to give it as alms, but Ibn Masud said that he and his children deserved it more than anybody else.” The Prophet replied, “Ibn Masud had spoken the truth. Your husband and your children had more right to it than anybody else.”
    Sahih Bukhari 2:24:541
    From the Quran:
    Yusuf Ali: O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah; For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, – his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.

    Women grumble and are ungrateful to their husbands:
    Jabir b. ‘Abdullah reported: I observed prayer with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) on the ‘Id day. He commenced with prayer before the sermon without Adhan and Iqama. He then stood up leaning on Bilal, and he commanded (them) to be on guard (against evil for the sake of) Allah, and he exhorted (them) on obedience to Him, and he preached to the people and admonished them. He then walked on till he came to the women and preached to them and admonished them, and asked them to give alms, for most of them are the fuel for Hell. A woman having a dark spot on the cheek stood up and said: Why is it so, Messenger of Allah? He said: For you grumble often and show ingratitude to your spouse. And then they began to give alms out of their ornaments such as their earrings and rings which they threw on to the cloth of Bilal.
    Sahih Muslim 48:1926

    A woman is worth half that of a man:
    Qur’an 2:282 states that the second female witness is required (in lieu of a man) because the first woman may forget; therefore the second can remind her. This implies that women have bad memories and are prone, more so then men, to forget details. On first look, this explanation looks quite reasonable; however in the ahadith, Muhammad did not specify that the testimony of women, in financial cases only was the cause of their intelligence defects. If this were truly only about testimony for financial cases, then Muhammad would have specified this. His statement “Isn’t it true that the testimony of two women is equal to that of a man” strongly implies that two female witnesses are required for any type of testimony; and in no way implies that it is for financial testimony only. After all, if this is the deficiency in her intelligence; then Muhammad is clearly referring to the fact that Allah believes that women have bad memories; and this is the reason a woman is deficient.

  • human2

    Why should women have to cover themselves to protect
    themselves from men? Is this not saying that men are too weakminded to control themselves? It seems to me that Islam always turns the blame onto women whenmen lose control. She was out late or she was wearing a short skirt. I personally think a woman should, if she wishes be able to walk around town in her bikini. I am strong enough to see a naked woman and not lose control of my mind or body.

    The Hijab/Niquab is not necessary in societies where men have been educated to respect women no matter their religion, background and indeed what clothes they wear or choose not to. Women should never have to cover up because of weak men
    thats just sad. What a sad admission of weakness on behalf of all muslim men….

    One shouldn’t need the protection of a garment due to weak minded men. Society should teach men self control and that a women’s body is hers and hers alone. No matter the state of her clothing. Seems like you have a lot to learn en0376 before calling yourselves civilized.

  • TalkingEid

    my dear – women are NOT equal is Islam – that’s why you can only have 1 husband, and your ‘evidence’ in a court is worth only 25% of a man’s.
    Wake up and stop believing what MEN tell you.

  • justback

    No…

    • en0376@nkios.com

      My Dear,
      What you are NOT satisfied with?
      See you later :)

  • Voxclara

    Can’t you read? Several comments below assert that women are equal to men in Islam. I use Islamic scriptures to prove that this not so. Women are not equal to men in Islam. Muhammed said women are deficient in intelligence and in faith, that they are an ungrateful lot and he saw that hell is full of women. The testimony of a woman is half that of a man. This is how women are viewed in Islam, the religion of ‘peace’. There are ample evidence how women are treated in Islamic countries.
    You can shelf your op. level, soul, essence, and other claptraps, they are irrelevant in this topic!

  • TalkingEid

    Please show some references that DO prove it. Just your usual “it’s true because I believe it is true’ nonsense.

  • tahugejrot

    Based on scientific study, men’s brain is different than women’s brain… So common perception that men are generally more logically intelligent, dominant , less emotional …blablablab … that women are emotionally more expressive blabla … are confirmed by this brain study …

    That’s why spriritual leader, mathematician, scientist, business leader , nobel laureates ….blablabla are mostly man … But don’t forget … who raised and educated them ..??

    For some society (who called themselves a science based society) , this scientific hard fact about men and women differences is considered as a “bitter fact” ….. What an irony ! … But that’s the best thing the nature has arranged …
    How to argue this ???

    Then about women’s vote is not equal than man’s vote … :
    Don’t you realize that one-man-one-vote is a flawed principle ??
    Don’t you realize why Philipine’s Joseph-drinker-gambler-Estrada – was
    elected as president ??

    Is it fair to give Nelson Mandela one vote and Paris Hilton also one vote ?? How to argue this ??

    Eventhough men and women are mentally and physically different .. they are both complementary .. and before God both men and women are in equal position as human being which is judge by their righteousness …

    Still want to campaign western style women-men equality ???

    • TalkingEid

      Yes. 2 cheers for democracy (an excellent piece of writing by E. M. Forster, you would do well to read it) – not a perfect system, but by far the best we have created so far.

      • tahugejrot

        So you confirm that western style democracy is a flawed system ….!
        Then what would you do ?
        Do nothing ??

  • hijab

    some people may say that I am discouraging her to wear hijab but let I explain to those who think that I am discouraging her to wear hijab
    I am not discouraging her to wear hijab but this is the teaching of the prophet Muhammad (s.w.s) to love, be merciful, be kind, and do not force someone to do something one day Allah may open her heart to wear hijab and the second reason is If you see someone doing good and it look like 10% treat it like 50% good that will make the person love you and willing obey you but now lots of people lose their mind and ready to react in a negative way so don;t think I am discouraging rather this may help her

  • Voxclara

    ToTo hijab, appreciate your effort. But the fact remains that women are oppressed and treated as possession under Sharia laws in Islamic countries. I won’t even try to refute the “taqiyya” being perpetrated in the two youtube videos you posted. But I will prove my point by using Islamic sources:

    Hatred of Jews and Christians were taught from very early age:

    http://youtu.be/I6cIVMHYlNI

    In the Quran, Jews are the offsprings of apes and pigs:

    http://youtu.be/5NvybWC6qic

    http://youtu.be/zZ27H9PEp14

    Jews are the eternal enemy of Muslims:
    http://youtu.be/_X8dhrzQCHY

    Why The hatred for Jews and Christians:
    http://youtu.be/QXahWLdQ6TA

    http://youtu.be/H0nmUSPbhTk

    Quran 5:60, Jews are apes and pigs:
    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=60

    Quran 5:82, Jews and Christians are enemies of Islam:
    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=82

    Quran 5:60, Allah cursed the Jews
    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=60

    Hadith: http://quotingislam.blogspot.com/2011/06/muhammad-says-that-one-day-very-trees.html

    Muhammad says that one day the very trees and stones will help Muslims to kill Jews
    He says it in both Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, Islam’s two most canonical hadith collections:

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:
    Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
    I heard Allah’s Apostle [Muhammad]saying, “The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!’ ”
    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
    Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
    Allah’s Apostle said, “You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ‘O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ ”
    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”
    Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:

    Ibn ‘Umar reported Allah’s Messenger[Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him.

    • niquab

      I tried to replied to your comment but sorry I can’t post anymore comment to you because JG don’t seams to agreed with everything I wrote :(

  • TalkingEid

    Try consulting a dictionary. You seem to have confused the word ‘equal’ with ‘identical’.

  • TalkingEid

    They exist only in his misogynistic mind.

  • niquab

    Thankyou

  • niquab

    but who can judge what is in your head lol no wone can’t do that

    • TalkingEid

      well you seem to do it all the time.

  • TalkingEid

    managed to find where I said reject democracy yet? Or did they not teach you good manners in your kidergarden?

  • TalkingEid

    any evidence yet? No, thought not.

    • tahugejrot

      What I am asking is please show me any evidence that woman are equal with man in the IQ intelligence ….emotional intelligence … rearing intelligence …. aesthetic intelligence …. kinetic intelligence …. blablabla…..

  • niquab

    Thankyou

  • niquab

    hello Voxclara if you want to talk bad about Islam, and bring statement’s from the scholars of Islaam then bring these scholars Sheikh Muhammad Al-Mukhtar Ash-Shinqitee, Shaikh Muhaddis Al Albaani, Sheikh Salih Al-Fawzaan, Sheikh Uthaymeen,
    Sheikh Abdul- Azeez ibn Baz.

    These Scholars is from the most knowledgeable of our time!

  • Anonymous

    playing with GOD’S word must be BAND!

    • Rustynails

      Which God’s word? What gives you the right to choose?

  • Anonymous

    BEAUTIFUL is the WOMEN who observe HIJAB
    HANDSOME is the MAN lowers his GAZE

    • Good,Bad and Ugly

      Where is your self respect?
      Were you born with hijab?
      Why should man lower his gaze? No logic!

  • justbac

    ha3x… but that is a least something BOTH genders do… see the difference?

  • Anonymous

    I ask the Christians some simple question and JG can’t put it up upto now I am wondering if the question is too hard

  • niquab

    Assalamu-alaikum
    My Dear sister,
    The time of the Mahdi is near and you know what the prophet Muhammad (s.w.s) says about the thing that will happen before the Mahdi come
    The people will be building as if they are raising one another and Men will imitate women and women will imitate men

    and I was searching for stories and I came across these books that talks about the thing that will happen before the Mahdi come,
    Source:
    http://salaf-stories.blogspot.com/

    Book 1
    Name: Black Flags from the East
    Link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/115588808/Black-Flags-From-the-East

    Book 2
    Name: Black Flags in Syria
    Link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/144137913/Black-Flags-From-Syria-Ebook

    Book 3
    Name: Black Flags from ARABIA
    Link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/165062410/Black-Flags-from-ARABIA

  • Anonymous

    alright back to the subject
    Who is more oppressed: Muslim or the western society women?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTI0HOQceqM

    Women finally realize feminism has failed
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXeszLlTX5E

  • Unum Deum

    I’m sure many of you are waiting for news about chaotic distribution of Qurban meat to poor people…..

    Another good opportunity to bash muslims celebrating Idul Adha..

  • Voxclara

    There are many verses in the holy scriptures when Jesus was referred to as God or said he was God. But I shall just quote a few from the Gospel according to St John.

    John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… 1:14 – And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

    John 5:17,18 – “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    John 5:23 – that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 8:24 – “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

    John 8:58 – Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 10:30-33 – Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    John 14:6-7 – Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    John 14:9-11 – Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

    John 20:28 – And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

  • Roland

    @Anonymous – who asked YOU any questions (as you claim in your last sentence)?

    You are the one asking them – and to top it of – those are the type of rather ridiculous ones found at various Christian hate sites (e.g. http://www.answering-christianity.com/questions.htm ) telling you, the reader, to ask those questions to a Christian.

    And hey, I just gave you access to a whole lot more of those kind of questions as you posted earlier. Isn’t that a great service?

    • Valkyrie1604

      Roland: It is obvious what ‘Anonymous’ is doing and I will not degrade myself going into further exchanges with this individual. It certainly sucks!

  • Valkyrie1604

    I am a Christian and I will tell you that no matter how lucid my answers are going to be, you will NOT be convinced.

    1: The opening phrase of the Ten Commandments.

    2: Mustava is correct but not completely. Although the Romans crucified

    Jesus, it was the Jews who incited the act.

    3: Jesus has NEVER taken the decision to rule the world.

    4: It’s the mystery of the Holy Trinity. Mystery in our Faith means any truth

    that is unknowable except by divine revelation

    5: God created men and gave him free will.

    6: You’re wrong! We pray whenever we need. Sundays have only been a

    traditional day for worship.

    7: You are certainly confused!!!

    I shall not pose any questions for you except to inform you that ALL of your questions and more can be revealed quite easily by referring to Christian sites in the Internet.

    I am not a Christian scholar by the way, and my response is to enlighten you from my personal convictions, as one.

    • Anonymous

      1) Yes the the first commandment is very clear the bible says
      “Thou shalt not have strange Gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. (Exodus 20:3-4)” meaning that there is only one GOD NOT three!
      2) yes r these people more strong than Jesus?
      3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGpDusvtUJo
      4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoLvAbMP2lY ur faith is couropted beacuse u still didn’t explain the thrinity!
      5) bible says in Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertains unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD your God.”
      the Bible also says ” (I Pet. 3:4), and this will be reflected in the type of clothing she wears. Her apparel will be appropriate for the occasion and stylish if affordable, while remaining modest and proper. The heart of such a woman will be pleasing to God.”
      the Bible also says ” I Timothy 2:9: “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel…”

      6) If u pray whenever u need then u r ungrateful to ur lord u must pray to thank him!

      • Valkyrie1604

        I will end this exchange because we are arguing about Holy beliefs and I for one DO NOT ENJOY such discussions.It will come to no end. Thus, I leave you to continue your faith.

        • Anonymous

          ok

  • Valkyrie1604

    Why can’t so many of you understand that the world is NOT persecuting Islam? All other Faiths wish to live alongside each other but truly, I cannot say this for some of you who have decided to take things their way and dominate.

    Are you so blind or deaf that you DO NOT see or hear what’s taking place right now?

    Yes, Islamic extremism has committed crimes against humanity. Are you going to deny this fact? You know, I can write a very lengthy post here to try convince people like yourself but it’s going to be a fruitless effort. Why? You are one of those who refuse to see and understand the wrongs of what your Faith has become for some.

    Can we all live with each other in Peace and Love?

    • niquab

      Yes we all can live in peace and love Allah says in the Quraan
      “And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.”

      (surah At-Tawbah verse 6)

      • Valkyrie1604

        It is also mentioned in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew.

        Luke: 6: 27 -46
        Matthew: 5: 44

        Are you aware that the Holy Bible was recorded long, long before the Koran?

      • DD

        Yes we all can live in peace and love Allah says in the Quraan

        Why are muslims all over the world failing to do just that?

  • Anonymous

    1)Yehi Ask u to look at the sun for just five min can u look at it so what about God? in heaven men and women will be 100 more strong than the men/ women of this world and only those who go to heaven will see God
    2) I replied to Valkyrie1604 about that same issue!
    3) So if men run the world then who send down water from the sky and more ok in the Quraan Allah says in many places that He will reward the one who is patience with a great reward in the next world!
    4) Explain how?
    5) I replied to Valkyrie1604 about that issue

    6) Maybe in Indonesia they r more Christians than muslim

  • niquab

    I don’t understand but I wasn’t talking to u I am talking to Unum Deum y u comment on this?

    • DD

      because this is an open forum – he/she is allowed
      However let me explain. you said you were searching for stories and he says ‘you found god’ which by lack of evidence is a fictional work, a story if you will.
      Ok now?

  • Voxclara

    Hi Niquab, you said I ‘talk bad about Islam’ but you didn’t explain why. Anyway here is a list of essentially najis things according to Islamic laws (sharia) from Al Islam.
    [[[ 84. * The following ten things are essentially najis

    Urine, Faeces, Semen, Dead body, Blood, Dog, Pig, Kafir, Alcoholic liquors,The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat. ]]]

    Source: http://www.al-islam.org/laws/najisthings.html

    Under the explanation of Kafir, this is what Islamic laws says from Al Islam:
    [[[ Kafir
    107. * An infidel i.e. a person who does not believe in Allah and His Oneness, is najis. Similarly, Ghulat who believe in any of the holy twelve Imams as God, or that they are incarnations of God, and Khawarij and Nawasib who express enmity towards th e holy Imams, are also najis. And similar is the case of those who deny Prophethood, or any of the necessary laws of Islam, like, namaz and fasting, which are believed by the Muslims as a part of Islam, and which they also know as such.

    As regards the people of the Book (i.e. the Jews and the Christians) who do not accept the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad bin Abdullah (Peace be upon him and his progeny), they are commonly considered najis, but it is not improbable that they are Pak. However, it is better to avoid them.

    108. The entire body of a Kafir, including his hair and nails, and all liquid substances of his body, are najis. ]]]

    As you can see, a Kafir (non Muslim) such as myself is as najis as urine and faeces according to sharia, the laws of your religion. This is not ‘talk bad about Islam’ but merely presenting facts from one of the many reliable and academic sources of your religion such as Al Islam. I do not make them up, they are taken directly from Islamic sources.

    • niquab

      Yes from non-Muslim they r najis in regard to not worshipping one God that what they r najis for but regardless of that we must not be near to them but still being kind and calm to them and this is from the teachings of our beloved prophet Muhammad (s.w.s)

  • Anonymous
  • DD

    Of course only last month King Abdullah also voiced his support (and 13 billion dollars) for the Egyptian Military’s crackdown against Islamic terrorism, namely the Muslim Brotherhood…

    Oh and let’s not forget Wikileaks

    QUOTE 1 – The Saudi government, was reluctant to cut off money being sent to the Taliban in Afghanistan and Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) in Pakistan.

    “While the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) takes seriously the threat of terrorism within Saudi Arabia, it has been an ongoing challenge to persuade Saudi officials to treat terrorist financing emanating from Saudi Arabia as a strategic priority,”

    QUOTE 2 – “In contrast to its increasingly aggressive efforts to disrupt al Qaeda’s access to funding from Saudi sources, Riyadh has taken only limited action to disrupt fundraising for the UN 1267-listed Taliban and LeT-groups that are also aligned with al Qaeda and focused on undermining stability in Afghanistan and Pakistan.”

    “More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al Qaeda, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups,”

    QUOTE 3 – “Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide, including in the Philippines, former Soviet Bloc, Indonesia and Malaysia” added the document signed by Clinton.

    Does that seem somewhat duplicitous to you? and thanks Addullah for funding murder in our nation in the name of your god

    • niquab

      who is George Bush? if u check the history of Islaam u will find difference our beloved prophet Muhammad (s.w.s) says that they will be a lot of confusion just before the Mahdi come even among the Muslims and Allah will send a Mahdi to rule the world no one will be poor during the caliph of the Mahdi and no one will reject Islaam during the time of the Mahdi because of the Justice that will spread among the people so yes they r lot’s of confusion right now!

      • DD

        really there is no hope really none at all, which is why I generally avoid engaging religious fruit bats of any flavour
        I hope your mahdi hurrys along because I’m pretty sick of seeing muslims killing others (often other muslims) for a belief that has zero actual evidence of the main protagonists existence
        BTW I’ve seen Islamic justice and if you looked at the video someone posted so would you

        • niuab

          I have ask you a simple question who is George Bush? did you answer my question? NO
          about the Mahdi
          I have heard that he is alive but when the Mahdi will become the Mahdi is when he reach 40 years so the longest you might have to wait is 40 years and the Mahdi will be name Muhammad ibn Abdullah just as our prophet name is Muhammad ibn Abdullah (s.w.s)

        • TalkingEid

          I’m with you – I think I will leave the 2 mass debaters to resolve it.

  • Voxclara

    Niqua, this is the reality in Saudi Arabia:

    The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia has said that all churches in the Arabian Peninsula must be destroyed. The statement prompted anger and dismay from Christians throughout the Middle East.

    Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah made the controversial statement in a response to a question from a Kuwaiti NGO delegation. A Kuwaiti parliamentarian had called for a ban on the construction of new churches in February, but so far the initiative has not been passed into law. The NGO, called the Society of the Revival of Islamic Heritage, asked the Sheikh to clarify what Islamic law says on the matter.

    The Grand Mufti, who is the highest official of religious law in Saudi Arabia, as well as the head of the Supreme Council of Islamic Scholars, cited the Prophet Mohammed, who said the Arabian Peninsula is to exist under only one religion.

    The Sheikh went on to conclude that it was therefore necessary for Kuwait, being a part of the Arabian Peninsula, to destroy all churches on its territory.

    In February, Kuwaiti MP Osama al-Munawar announced on Twitter that he was planning to submit legislation that would remove all churches in the country. However, he later clarified that existing churches should remain, while the construction of new non-Islamic places of worship would be banned.

    Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/03/countries/saudi-arabia/destroy-all-churches-in-the-arabian-peninsula-saudi-grand-mufti-not-islam#ixzz2hypMDEd4

  • DD

    you had to sign up because the content is so violent and disgustingly nasty that it requires age verification
    Make an account and see what is happening

  • DD

    Your argument is invalid as soon as said human screams ‘allah akbar’ or similar as he does the act -

    • Anonymous

      check the Quraan and Hadith to know the truth Not what people do!

      • TalkingEid

        Matthew 7:16

  • TalkingEid

    possibly because they are nonsense?

  • TalkingEid

    you have a lot to say – but it’s just noise, no substance.

  • TalkingEid

    well since the ‘proof’ exists only in your head – thanks but no thanks. Your offer to shovel things down someones throat calls up a particularly unpleasant image of Muslim misogyny at work.

  • TalkingEid

    nor me – come on – simple question for a simple mind to give a simple answer – why does Islam permit polygamy but not polyandry?

  • TalkingEid

    Because it doesn’t. End of.

  • globo

    what are evidences that womwn are not equal to men and what are evidences women are equal to men?

  • niquab

    @Voxclara
    what religion you are following, according to your religion does it not say if you follow another religion then you will go to hell and don’t go close to those people who is not in your religion because you maybe misguided eh? well what I will do now all the religion say the same thing about that? is this not true if this is not true then I don’t know.
    I either must submit to your religion or I will go to hell?

    • Voxclara

      Hi Niqua, thanks for the reply, but I don’t quite understand your point. I am a Christian, and my faith doesn’t teach me that those who are different in faith are as najis as faeces, urine, dogs, pigs, dead body, sweat, blood etc. or that I must keep away from them. On the contrary I was taught to accept and welcome people of other faiths. My faith forbids me from discriminating against them. I have many friends of various faiths, and some of them become like family to me. But you said this is forbidden in your faith? You must not accept and must stay away from non Muslims because we are najis? Does this mean you have no freedom, and practise intolerance and discrimination? Please explain.

      • niquab

        Hi Voxclara,

        as far as I know is that if you are a Christian (in the Christians belief) is if you are a Christian then you must believe that Jesus is the son of God and if you don’t believe that you will go to hell, and Islam says if you don’t believe that their is only one God then you will go to hell and only those who Allah have mercy on them will go to paradise also proof?
        “The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: “There were two men who were living as brothers; one of them was sinful, while the other stove very much to perform his devotion to Allah. The striver (after good) would continuously see the other in sin, and so he would continuously advise him to leave it. The sinner retorted: ‘Leave me, by my Lord- are you sent as a watcher over me?’ worshipper said: ‘By Allah, Allah will not forgive you, or (he said) Allah will not make you enter Jannah. After their souls were taken, they were brought together before Allah, so He said to the striver: ‘Did you have knowledge of Me, or are you able to do what is in My Hand?’ Allah said to the sinner ‘Go to Jannah by my Mercy and said to the other “Take him to the fire (of Jahannam)’. ”
        [Abu Dawood and Ahmad]

        bye bye

  • devine

    hahaha… you are really a true believer… no matter what fairy tale… lets see in 40 years if we are still around…

    • niquab

      do you believe that Jesus will return we Muslim believe the same and that the Mahdi will come just before Jesus but we will wait and see if Jesus will return!

  • niquab

    God says in Quran:-

    He is the ORIGINATOR OF the HEAVENS and the earth. How can He have CHILDREN when He has no WIFE? He created all things and He is the All-Knower OF everything .
    ( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #101)

    THEY say: “ALLAH HAS begotten a SON (children).” Glory is to Him! He is RICH(Free of all needs). His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. No warrant you have for this. Do you say against ALLAH what you KNOW NOT.
    ( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #68)
    Source(s):
    AL QURAN

    Jesus Christ (pbuh): in the Bible
    (i) “My Father is greater than I.”
    [The Bible, John 14:28]

    (ii) “My Father is greater than all.”
    [The Bible, John 10:29]

    (iii) “…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God….”
    [The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

    (iv) “…I with the finger of God cast out devils….”
    [The Bible, Luke 11:20]

    (v) “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
    [The Bible, John 5:30]

    BIBLE

  • Voxclara

    Thanks Niquab for your replies. But I don’t quite understand why you posted the various verses from the Holy Bible, which were revealed centuries before the Quran. It is a fact that the understanding of God of the Bible is not the same as the understanding of Allah of the Quran. But it doesn’t mean one is wrong and the other is right. Each has its own belief and should be respected including tolerance, and acceptance of those who embrace different faiths from ours. That is what was taught to me in my faith. Which brings me back to my question to you, the fact that your faith teaches that the kafirs are as najis as faeces, urine, dead body etc. and you should keep away from us. Does this mean you have no freedom and are taught to practise intolerance and discriminations? Would appreciate your explanation.

    Two links using Islamic scriptures to refute the usual and tired claims which you posted. First take a look at this video on YouTube where one Islamic scholar inadvertently affirmed the concept of the Holy Trinity: http://youtu.be/jSz6jlWbpDI
    Then read the two links provided below:

    1.The Quran and the Holy Trinity, Islam’s Mistaken Views of Basic Christian Doctrines, Here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/quran_trinity.htm

    2. Qur’an Contradiction, Is Jesus God or Not? Here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/jesus_creator.htm

  • TalkingEid

    Frankly your displays of erudition are less interesting than watching paint dry. I leave copy/paste jobs from the Quaran / Bible / Torah / Buddhavacana and Uncle Tom Cobbly and All to you and Niqab, so you can carry on impressing yourselves with your rorschach texts.

  • TalkingEid

    Intention to inflame? You mean a stream of continuous anti-Muslim bile? Oh no wait……
    Well it’s great to see your reasonable, rational postings, referring to trolls, inflaming, etc. I hope one day I can aspire to such wisdom and kind words.
    I guess you missed the part about ‘offering the other cheek’?

    • Voxclara

      My anti Muslim bile? Where ? Prove your charge if you can. I repeat you contribute nothing except with the sole intention to infame, you are a troll! The proof are just above. You resort to insult the only way you know. You are a sad sad pompous delinquent with penchant for verbosity… Very sad.

      • TalkingEid

        Oops – my bad. I didn’t realise that God had appointed you to be the judge of what is my heart and mind. Have you also, in your newly found role, deleted that part about loving your enemies?

  • niquab

    @voxclara:disqus,
    Thanks for your replies too,
    NOTE:Something mark “Five Common Misconceptions about Christianity” I do NOT write that it only can be a Christian who wrote that if you check it out, I AM A MUSLIM! My Internet was off so that’s why I take soo long to reply.
    Regarding Monotheism we Muslim believe that it exist since the time of Adam (a.s) and that the Prophet Muhammad (s.w.s) was the last prophet of God and NOT the first so the Quraan is obviously the last book… but note the Torah and the Bible was only send to the Children of Israel these people are also known as the people of the book (the Jews and Christians)
    Can a Muslim be friend with a non-Muslim
    Yes if he follow these condition!
    1) That his friend should not muck Islaam or anything about it
    2) That his friend should not be drinking Rum or smoke this may cause him to adopt a bad habit and I want you to know Voxclara that if a Muslim drinks rum then his prayer is not accepted for 40 days
    3) that the Muslim bro should not muck at his religion too (but he can advise him to enter Islaam)
    the 2 links is block and I can’t get any info from it thank you tho
    by the way I want you to check these youtube vid

    1)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFVn8BmHLCc
    2)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ekIMXhEYh8
    3)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX5VGr17240

    • TalkingEid

      So wonderful to see 2 experts on each others religions make a mockery of of both. Could you and Voxclara just exchange emails and stop boring the rest of us to death?

      • Roland

        Two thumbs up! (And my two big toes went up too!). That entire thread is a screamer (I think it is actually the longest thread in the history of the internet – kept alive solely by ‘Niquab’ and ‘Voxclara’ for the last two months or so…..but amazingly (I started to click to the “Load more comments” button – at least ten times but then I gave up) it started at least 6 months ago with some really weird contributions – the article itself is more than one year old – so before the new style JG started and all old comments were deleted…
        I mean there must be in the meantime hundreds of wonderful links to wonderful sites (including of course YouTube) explaining all those wonderful things about wonderful bearded and not-bearded people contained in there….

    • Voxclara

      Hi Niquab,
      Sorry that you can’t access the two links I provided, they contain scholarly articles which refute the misconceptions you cited using only Islamic scriptures. If you read my reply, I never suggested you wrote the “5 common misconceptions about Christianity”. I used the word “posted” not “wrote” big difference in meaning. Neither did I ever imply that you are a Christian. For a true Christian knows his/her faith and would never write nor posted such gibberish. The fact that you are Muslim is obvious from the start. So I don’t quite understand why you feel insulted in anyway. Unless you think being thought as one of the people of the book is in itself a great insult to a Muslim? If someone mistakenly think I am a Muslim due to my knowledge on Islam, I won’t be offended at all.

      However you haven’t answered my question instead you have introduced several issues. You said you could be friend with a kafir under certain conditions? But doesn’t that go against the “najis” ruling of the Quran? You also said this potential kafir friend shouldn’t drink rum or smoke. So the potential kafir friend could drink any other alcoholic beverages except rum? Whiskey brandy, wine, beer etc are acceptable? Almost everyone I know smoke kretek yet they are Muslim. Have they committed sin? I also find it puzzling that you find it necessary to impose certain conditions to kafir before they can be your friends. Isn’t that another example of intolerance of others diversities? You use the word “muck” do you mean mock?

      Dear Niquab, Could you please answer the question on najis I asked a while ago? Otherwise we just go around in circle here.. And a very Happy Deepavali (Divali) to all Hindus who happens to read this section.

      • niquab

        Ok I will reply,

        as I go to post the comment I realized that I didn’t reply you anything on najis I will speak as far as my knowledge go Inshallah

        Dogs: Dogs are known to be haram to eat in Islaam also if a dog eat in a plate then that plate should be washed 7 times with Mud (I don’t think that this ruling is apply to a non-Muslim too)

        Pigs: Pigs as far as I know is that it is haram to eat any further!

        faeces, urine, dead body, blood etc: Is known to be najis like a woman who have her menses she can’t pray nor fast nor hold the actual Musshaf (Quraan) it is the same ruling that a man can’t pray if he have these thing on his cloth he must wash it off or when it is dry on his cloth like something that can’t remove or so then he can go and pray it apply to all of the above (Pigs, Dogs, faeces, urine, dead body, blood )

        Non-Muslim: we can Invite a non-Muslim to a wedding and we can talk to them and a non-Muslim I don’t think that they gone beyond dogs and pigs i think that dogs and pigs is a more lower state than a non-MUslim But faeces, urine, dead body, blood etc is like the stage of a non-Muslim too Just As it is in a woman during her period

        any alcohol is najis but I write rum instead then that is a mistake and yes I also made a mistake on the word mock but my spelling is not that good too thank you to bring back these 2 matters and I didn’t write about “Five Common Misconceptions about Christianity” thank you

        bye bye

        • jezabel

          ………..and I didn’t write about “Five Common Misconceptions about Christianity” thank you……..

          Its that imaginary friend again

        • Roland

          How “subtle” you are expressing your distaste for Non-Muslims “…I don’t think that they gone beyond dogs and pigs i think that dogs and pigs is a more lower state than a non-Muslim …”

          Do you really see other humans by their affiliation to religion first and then categorize them as either good humans or “najis”? What happened with your life?

          Anyway, here’s a list compiled by Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husayni Sistani who clearly spells what is unclean:

          1) Urine

          2) Faeces

          3) Semen (I guess this is what you wanted to express, but didn’t dare to when you wrote “…a man can’t pray if he have these thing on his cloth he must wash it off or when it is dry on his cloth like something that can’t remove…”. Is it?)

          4)Dead Body

          5) Blood

          6) Dog

          7) Pig

          8) Kafir (here we go – this obviously well-versed man in regards of Islamic rules seems to go contrary to your “I think…” statement. He even goes so far to call them the “vilest of creatures”)

          9) Alcoholic liquors

          10) the sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat (=unclean “things”)

          In addition Sistani added that the entire body of a “Kafir”, including his hair and nails and all liquid substances of this body are najis.

          Now, this Grand Ayatollah is supposedly a moderate reformer….

          (BTW, I freely borrowed from Robert Spencer)

  • Good,Bad and Ugly

    By definition:
    To be ignorant is to not have the data or the facts which could lead you to the truth, ie incomprehension, unawareness, unconsciousness, inexperience, innocence;
    unfamiliarity with, lack of enlightenment about, lack of knowledge about, lack of information about.
    However, when one has the knowledge available ie provable facts, undeniable evidence, irrefutable data, but if they choose to deny, to refute or to simply ignore the science, which was not available even 100 years ago, then that person(s) enters the realm of stupidity.
    It has been a boring displeasure listening to the ‘hearsay’ evidence and repetitive rhetorical tripe on this issue.

  • niquab

    who are you talking to, to the woman who said that she does not wear hijab because of this and that or me?

  • Roland

    Ahhhh, a Muslim claiming to be a Christianity expert!

  • jezabel

    Dont say your a muslim when you refuse to except a dacree or a matter from our creator or prophet, —– Interesting, however

    Then that requires evidence of a creator otherwise what you believe in is just superstition and indeed all who call themselves XYZ are merely delusional or desperate or weak of thought.
    However there is no evidence, indeed as this is the case the whole pretence is a charade for man man oppression and control

  • niquab

    Voxclara

    Lets end with this now because I see that the people are getting fed up with us, I can continue but the people are getting fed up maybe JG too are getting fed up so lets stop
    LOL I AM NOT FED-UP :)
    Last time I am saying bye bye
    Thank You

  • niquab

    Yes you didn’t talk about the companion of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (s.w.s) people make mistake but Islam don’t check this link out
    http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/foreign-policy/2764-the-islamic-view-on-slaves-and-slavery

    and also this you tube link

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ5P8SMwo2U

  • Anonymous

    who win the debate Niquab/Voxclara? ……Just want to know!

    • niquab

      Assalamu-Alaikum
      Calm down now…..:)
      But let me make it clear to Voxclara that if he want to know who s/he chatting with….then it is a verry young teanager ie.14, so if I look stupid then that’s ok , I think that Voxclara is much bigger than that!

      • Anonymous

        I know that I was a little rude to this sister and I admit that I was wrong and on the Christian I was a little rude too what Umm and you says was correct so I apologies for my mistake

        • niquab

          (:Peace:) it’s ok I forgave you and I want you to forgave me for my rudeness (:Peace:)

  • devine

    What a narrow, shallow world you are living in… wonder who thought you…?
    I am always suspicious of people who think they know the “truth”…

  • Brechin

    985 comments on this matter, whilst Rome burns. Pathetic religious zombies.

  • Bystander

    the author of http://gmiah.hubpages.com/hub/The-Sun-Will-Rise-From-The-West-On-Earth

    seems a bit confused. Retrograde motion is a visual effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_motion- Mars and other planets “seem” to move “backwards” in the sky because the Earth moves faster in it’s orbit The Earth catches up and passes them. The Visual effect: they “appear” to move in the opposite direction for a few days. But that’s all that’s happening – it’s not related to the rotation of Earth or Mars, i.e, the Sun won’t rise in the west.

  • Bystander

    In addition the effect of Retrograde Motion was first explained by:

    Claudius Ptolemy AD 90 – c. AD 168. i.e. 500 BEFORE Muhammad was even born. And Ptolemy not even discovered Retrograde Motion. He was able to explain it. But the phenomenon of RM was already know for thousands of years.

  • Jakarta_Globe

    @voxclara:disqus I would be happy to clarify. The sentences above were edited out because they were in violation of our comments policy.

    From the comments policy: “3. Language that is likely to deeply offend or insult another person such as personal attacks, insults, threats and name-calling”

    And while we’re on the subject, the near-constant posts below attacking Islam while championing Christianity are borderline “4. Trolling, flaming and spamming.” This concerns both you and @5cce3f7a320fc4fc3ce9c38ff564d02e:disqus.

    This argument has gone on for months. @5cce3f7a320fc4fc3ce9c38ff564d02e:disqus attempted to bow out 24 days ago. Can we just move on? More interesting things are happening in the country than a centuries-old debate over whose religion is the best.

    Thanks,

    Web Ed

    • Voxclara

      WebEd, I am still waiting for you to substantiate your accusations, if you can’t then I expect that you publish an apology for your unfounded accusation!

      • Jakarta_Globe

        Voxclara You posted probably 15% of the comments in this thread. One post was edited (Maybe a few more, I don’t know, this is a big desk. We don’t inform each other every time we edit a comment). We’re not going to search through all of them. In our opinion calling someone stupid (which you did) is a violation. As is trolling half of the articles that mention Islam with your interpretations of Islamic texts.

        Just take the above as a sign to calm down and move on to more fruitful topics of discussion. It looks like plenty of people are tired of this. Thanks.

  • mauriceg

    Niquab, your premise only works if you are a Muslim. If you are of another faith, you are not forced to accept the Muslim view of the world, which incidentally isabout 1300 or so years out of date, and thousands of kilometres away in ‘culture’. I am not a Christian or Muslim but what you learned about Christianity is untrue. If you got out more and talked to real people outside your apparently narrow confines, your eyes would be opened. Seriously. I am not pushing anyone’s faith at you. But the world is a huge place, and there is much more to learn about it, by yourself, in your own time from books and online, than you can imagine. Come back in a few years time, and tell us then if i lie to you.

  • Waris

    Such ridiculous comments by people who decide to use questionable hadiths or say asinine adages as “I want you to know that you make satan HAPPY and your lord who gave you so many things SAD.”

    Here is the question that you should ask yourself: Can I be a good Muslim without hijab? If the answer is yes, than don’t worry about what others tell you or people who resort to Neanderthal tactics by displacing you to hell if you don’t wear it. There is no logic behind such rationale. Do you actually think Allah (swt) gets emotional? Do you think he is getting “sad” when you are not wearing a garment over your head? There are millions of Muslim women who do unbelievable charitable and generous things beyond imagination and they don’t wear hijab. To think that Allah would discard such great work because a woman does not wear hijab is an insult to Allah.

  • Børge Bahr Naseer Blåtind

    Greetings

    As you may know there are those muslims refuting all the Hadith, So if you want arguments against wearing Hijab and all rituals, read from books I had collected see last.
    So there are interpretations different than your “average” muslims,

    Anyway most absurdities in Islam comes from Hadith and the understanding of such
    in the Quran

    Have a blessed day. Børge

    Below is an alternative understanding of some verses, just so you may want to read.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/Heersaleti/

    Maniza Mirza

    ” ZULQARNAIN OF THE TIME” is the planner/conjoiner to deal with two different societies of opposite states (dawn and dusk).
    A person having power,sources and control IE strong ruling authority refer to verse 18/84 if face/deals in similar situations ( given below), could be called ZULQARNAIN
    :- His dealing with the dusk-nation (defeated group of people) has been described in verses 18/-86-88.
    :-His dealing with the people of the dawn (civilized and developing group of the society), has been taken understood (given no details) in verses18/90-91
    :- His dealing with the third type of complexed societity having two different types of communities [living nearby in clash with each other] One is highly civilized and other is barbarian in his character (CALLED YAJOOJ MAJOOJ), has been described.

    Børge Bahr Naseer Blåtind

    Free English book refuting Hadith and understand the Quran for download in PDF format:
    http://www.box.net/shared/5tgzvctcf5

    • logic monotheist gog magog

      ‘most absurdities in Islam comes from Hadith’
      thanks for sayin that, agree with you
      many moslem read the quran only as mantra and nothing, they are even reluctant to open the translation, some good translation are available out there ie: monotheist translation, reformist translation etc.

  • mauriceg

    Nobody outside a building for prayer needs to hear regurgitated holy words taken out of context, for the purposes of self- and religious-aggrandizement, in these posts. That means any religion. So spare us the Islamic propagandizing. You may find learning a baffling experience, so I’ll stop giving you scientific explanations that contradict your primitive superstitions.

    • gogmagog

      when did you give me scientific explanations mr.wise and clever? tell me something here what you think will contradict my primitive(and evolutive) brain.
      cheers
      gog magog
      chapter17: you will reach the zenith of arrogance…..but when the promise of the second time comes…..

  • gog magog

    man, i work with waves and em field half of my life time and now i became an antiscience bcs of few words from quran! hahaha
    Let us build a methodology on noachian flood, i want to know from your side what you will do to prove that. Youll send sedimentologist or making a time machine able to travel backward(pls note travel backwrd in time is impossible)?
    Now lets think the flood is limited to the dead sea area and noah ark is only a small ark caryin few people with animals.
    i have faith to quran and god, and i didnt force you to believe that. enjoy your retiring time man!

  • Bystander

    Quote: ok but I am a bit of confused to what your trying to say can u explain in more details thankyou EndQuote

    Well what I was trying to say is:

    1.) The description of “sun will be Rising from the west” on http://gmiah.hubpages.com/hub/ has nothing to do with science although http://gmiah.hubpages.com/hub/ seems to try to make it scientific. From your previous comment: Quote “and if you don’t believe that the sun will be Rising from the west, then check out this link
    http://gmiah.hubpages.com/hub/…” End Quote, you seemed to believe what http://gmiah.hubpages.com/hub/ is telling ist the Truth.

    2.) It was puzzling to me why you would mention the Retrograde Motion. I assumed that you wanted to hint to a future state of your earth rotation which you seem to think was being mentioned in the quran (I guess to show that the quran is wonderful) The “mentioning” of the Retrograde Motion in the quran has several flows:
    a.) The Sun will NEVER rise form the west. (This is why i posted the link to the explanation to Retrograde Motion before)
    b.) Since you seem take this rising of the sun in the west as true or at least state that this Retrograde Motion was mentioned in the quran, I just wanted to add some additional information that this knowledge was know already hundred (maybe even thousand years) before the quran war revealed. Which either means that the author of the quran copied form the romans (which makes this mentioning of Retrograde Motion not so wonderous), or that God took pity on the the ancient arabs since they were the only ones not knowing of that phenomenon so he had to reveal it to them.

  • mimi

    Just like our Prophet Muhamad SAW. Allah has ensured him going to the paradise in eternity. but why Muhammad always pray more than usual? his answer is about Grateful to Allah. So, why we are not feeling Grateful to Allah by this case? :-)

  • Anonymous

    Don’t make yourself a fool he said “JUST LIKE OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SWS). ALLAH HAS ALREADY TOLD HIM (SWS) THAT HE (SWS) IS ALREDDY GOING TO PRADISE SO WHY DID THE PROPHET PRAY MORE, IT IS BEACAUSE HE (SWS) WANT TO SHOW HIS (SWS) GRATFULLNES TO ALLAH ” and the question is simpel too the question is “SO WHY DON’T WE BE GRATFUL TO ALLAH AS THE PROPHET (SWS) Thankyou

    • Bystander

      Because we use our brains? Btw on your keyboard there is a key where CAPS LOCK is written. maybe you should deactivate it.

      • Maryam

        The prophet used his Brian.

        • bystander

          I am not sure what you try to say what that comment :The prophet used his Brian.

          I can just assume that you mean, He (the prophet) used his brain and came to the conclusion that he better be thankful to Allah. The thing is: Using their brain, various humen can come to different conclusion. So if he (the prophet) comes to the conclusion to be thankful to his god, doenst mean that everyone else comes to the same conclusion. e.g. Using my brain, after reading the quran and bible, I came to the conclusion that the god, as described in the “holy” scriptures, is non-existent. And if he were true, I am not sure if i would like to submit to him.

  • submitter

    God, Angels, sins and rewards can’t be seen. That is the reason why the ordains of God are neglected and at some times enacted.

    Just like when cops are visible, we try our best to not break the regulations. But as cops are no longer in surrounding distance. We tend to lax our selves from regulations.

  • gog magog

    ‘most absurdities in Islam comes from Hadith and their priest’
    many moslem read the quran only as mantra and nothing, they are even reluctant to open the translation, some good translation are available out there ie: monotheist translation, reformist translation etc.

  • Lina Yusof

    I wonder why the males don’t cover their heads. If the women have to wear the hijab and cover their body to protect themselves from sexual harassment then perhaps males should do the same too since I do find some males uncovered hair sexually attractive. Plus some of them like to show their six packs to the public. Won’t that make the muslim men sinners for causing the women to feel sexually attractive to them?. Note the sarcasm. By the way do you know that most of the major religions come from the arab region. What is the geographic situation there? Hmmm. Let see hot, dusty, cold at night with the frequent sand storms. Hello… even men over there have to cover themselves.more so women since we women like to keep long hair. It adds to our beauty. do you know how hard it is to get rid of dust and sand from your hair?Besides by covering the hair and body helps to protect the women and men from dehydration. don’t you know?

    • zeeshan khan

      you said exactly good

  • Bystander

    Quote:

    They have to wear kufi as a sign of religiousness. Trust me, it makes harder for the men to control themselves, than it is for a woman. Their thinking is much different from ours.

    End Quote.

    Why should we trust you? Are you some kind of expert? Anyhow. to substitute you here a little bit: Research shows that men have as much self control as women. They dont think as different as women. The difference is on biological level. Men have a stronger sex drive. And for this it doenst matter if the woman is convered up or not. A beautiful (or even an average looking) person who is dressed in a “modest” fashion can be (or in general is) more appealing than an a hideous naked one.

    Quote:

    We are all here as a test from Allah, this whole Dunya is a test. We are obliged to different things. Just follow what is says in the Quran and follow what the prophet Muhammad (saw) says.

    end quote

    Why do we need to be tested? Isn´t Allah supposed to be all knowing? You say we are obliged to different things. So what you are saying is: Allah made us different, and then he send us the quran to align us again? Is that what you are saying?

    Quote:
    Stay close to the Deen to be successful in this life and the hereafter.
    end quote

    Success by staying close to the Deen? IF you ever read news or just look beyond your veil, you will see that living by the Deen doenst guarant success in live. You dont believe me? Just spend one day in the slums of Jakarta or in any hospital, and ask the people there how their Deen has been working out for them.

    Quote:
    I never said to not question what Islam says, but Allah knows best. I’m a type of person who would keep to the safe side of things. About the Deen, but I do believe that some women (and men, one time there was a bank robbery in America and men were disguised in the full hijab.) use this blessing from Allah the wrong way.

    end quote

    So what you say is: You can question the quran, but against your judgement follow the quran anyway? … So why question it in the first place?

    Quote:
    Inshallah, Allah makes it easier for us, ameen

    end quote.

    So Allah makes it easy if you follow the Deen? Again: look beyond your veil, lets say Syria or Egypt for example. If you really think that the muslims there have it easy, then you are either ignorant or cynical.

  • Bystander

    Quote:
    If u don’t trust her then u don’t need to tell everyone or ask why just keep it to yourself BTW the place where i live in i witness men whom is well mannered with regard to women whenever a women confront them the will lower their gaze out of respect! and women are also dress with modest actually i live in an islamic society, and a women don’t wear hijab because of men they wear hijab out of obedient to their creator!
    End Quote

    You are missing the point of the comment. Maryam stated that the Hijab would help men to control their lust. I stated that is not that way.When YOU on the other hand state:

    ” …BTW the place where i live in i witness men whom is well mannered with regard to women whenever a women confront them the will lower their gaze out of respect!….”

    You are just prooving my point that it men are very well able to control themselves without the need of a hijab.

    Quote:
    We are all tested because Allah want to see how strong or if we are going to be obedient to him and HE will reward us with Jannah if we are good and punish who misbehave though he is all knowing. Don’t we have the ability to do what we want to chose which Religion we want to obey whom want?
    End quote

    Again you are either missing the point or not understanding my argument: Allah is supposed to be all knowing, right?
    But still Allah want to see how strong or if we are going to be obedient to him, although he is supposed to know this…..

    Quote:
    I want u to know that Allah reward the patient and forgave a Moumin when he is sick. On the day of resurrection the people will wish that their skins to be cut up into pieces because of the tremendous reward of the patience Subhannallah!
    end quote.

    So what you are basically saying is: God made us, want to test us by making us sick. Wants to see if, despite “torturing” us with sickness, we will stay obedient. And if we do he rewards us with ..something.
    Again you dont seem to understand the concept of all knowing. When God is all knowing, being able to see the future etc. Shouldnt he know?

    Quote
    I have been reading miracles that happened in syria and I was amaze what was written in it (the book) Subhanallah and I would like to offer it to u and u will again understand how Alllah is with the patience link below
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/2048

    end quote.

    Again: Allah allowed the war in the first place. Why is it necessary to torture those people in the first place?

  • Curious Canadian

    As a christian who knows very little of Islam this all seems very strange to me. But the more I think about it, the more I realise it’s not that strange. We both have our fair share of odd seemingly pointless rules as well :P

    But question it says your hair can’t look like the unbelieving woman. Er…why? just because I wear say…jeans doesn’t mean I’m like a serial killer who also wears jeans. And I see plenty of woman who cover their heads and are not Muslim in the slightest…so…what about them? In the end you will always look like some unbelieving woman somewhere in the world.

    Shouldn’t being a good muslim, like being a good christian be based on how you treat others? feeding the poor, housing the homeless, doing good ect. why get hung up on this thing that to me seems so small, compared to the great suffering of so many of Gods children that go unmet.

    Anyone willing to enlighten me?

  • Servant of Allah

    Hizab from Quranic perspective it’s totally different from contemporary understanding. Hizab is not a dress code it’s about your five desires, how to control, act and excute youself in this world, it’s not just about lowering your gaze but lowering your eating, lowering your hearing, lowering your smelling and lowering your touching. Allah emphasis on gaze is because it is prominent desire and Allah knows that people of understanding will understand.

  • Allahs servant

    There is no such thing as do not understand, it’s your laziness and irresponsible that makes you ignorance. Allah created you with five senses and Allah want you to input knowledge’s so that you may find the truth. knowledge is for everyone either you take it or leave it, it’s your choice. Allah has created us with components and we have to make use of it, if you just sit down and expect Allah to do every thing than you have no purpose. I hope this will enlighten you.

  • Wellies

    Salaam alaikum!
    I thought that the article was very interesting, having done a lot of research into the hijab using Qur’an and hadith. I’m sure you’ve already thought of it, but I’ll say it anyways:

    The opinions of other muslims should have no bearing on your deen. We should not take it upon ourselves to judge you; that is Allah’s domain, and I, for one, will not encroach upon it.

    I think that hijab is more than about wearing a piece of cloth on your head. It is in the way you step, speak, and behave. That is not to say that muslim women should be timid, silent or shy. But I think that there is a way that we women can present ourselves so that others know we are not be approached or hounded. The “physical” hijab, if you will, only reinforces what we should already be carrying within our souls. I’m hesitant to say that hijab as it is known today is mandated by Allah, but I do believe that covering the body is. I’d like to err on the side of caution, though.

    Then again, my understanding and relationship with my Deen is forever changing, so I might change my mind come tomorrow!

    And I wish you nothing but peace and happiness, sister. Somehow, other commenters have forgotten to treat their fellow believers gently as the Qur’an bids us to do.
    Salaam!

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