DD: While I agree with you absolutely on the concept of trust & core-team, this is not applicable in labor-union vs. bussines-assoc.

I put "vs." because this is the current view, there is no trust (on national level) between employees & employers.

This level of family-like trust at your company, is highly unlikely to happen at national level.

And your suspicion that the workforce are just being used as pawns, I have no doubt.

But as I previously mentioned to SAKB, there is no way to manipulate the workers IF the path to progress is focused on advancing the worker's skill, capability, & their own efficiency through training & learning programs funded by labor-union vs. bussines-assoc. Win-win-screwgovt situation.

SAKB: You said "I'm not advocating violence at all. In the history of labour struggles it's pretty clear which is the violent side."

Of course, none of us are advocating violence, BUT, can you prevent violence?

When the emotion is high on the street, the air is dusty-hot-stuffy-sweaty, the shout on loud speakers not heard, provocator/infiltrator started with little talk here &there,

one thing leads to another, before you know it,

the tiniest spark turned into wildfire, we're no gandhi.

And remember this, any side resorting to violence is a guaranteed to get violent replies, all sides will bleed.

SAKB: Don't think yohanes includes himself in this group of people who explicitly/implicitly want to run others' lives.

As for Reagan: I know u're anti-reagan, anti-hitler, anti-stalin, anti-imperial, anti-liberal, anti-religion, anti-fascist, anti-monarchy, anti-authoritarian, anti-socialist,etc basically anti-everything. So what aren't you anti- of ?

Ur question: "So where's Indonesia's empoyEEs' association?"

Here: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/indonesian-activists-worry-about-unions-growth/499895

We both know how this "union" or "association" will be abused if the "protest path" is encouraged from within. There is no way to prevent infiltration, all organizations are prone to this.

However through the path of upgrading skills, improving efficiency, learning new techniques or new 'how to'-[create/fix sth], etc all the programs which enable its members to enhance themselves for future use, what is there to manipulate ??

EJ

The pendulum has swung too far of that I am certain. when it swings back it will no doubt do more damage - as is the way of most things

On this debate, its fair to say that all parties are actually right, certainly from where they stand

My own fear is that the workforce are just being used as pawns - and to what ends??

But as NRN suggests I am perhaps prone to looking on the darker side and so I am sure like all reasonable men they will sit around and find a solution.. I predict new cars for the union leaders as the short term solution

"Anyway, I am bowing out from this debate. This is not a productive use of my time."

I see, very hoity. Well you get to ya Reagonomics classes then. Good luck Sir.