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Who Are the Atheists in Indonesia?
Soe Tjen Marching | January 31, 2012

'Atheism does not violate Pancasila. All Indonesians may consciously and rationally choose their own beliefs. The country’s very foundation protects their right to do so.' (Photo courtesy of Karl Karnadi)
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Valkyrie
7:30pm Feb 6, 2012

nonredneck....

Exactly what I did some time ago. Just a couple of last words for 'bawel' who truly does not comprehend my question about the chicken and the egg. You want to take a shot at answering my question 'bawel'?

One of these days you are going to painfully regret what you stand for.

SAKB....

Love to respond but I must agree with 'Dez' and 'nrn' to stop this thread. Perhaps another occasion?


DrDez
6:33pm Feb 6, 2012

Bowel.. yes it was a serious answer, so was the answer to the first, only you don't see it that way because you cannot comprehend or acknowledge that actually you may be wrong... I can and did so if you recall

Thats my last post on this thread BTW - I care not what you believe so long as you do not hurt others because of your belief.


nonredneck
5:09pm Feb 6, 2012

Second DD, lets stop this now. Everybody please continue to idolize your latest super hero be it bradpitt, brucelee, santa claus, stevejob, gaga, or pussycatdoll. You can sleep next to their photos, talk to the figurines, have a silent moment together complete with candle & wine, do whatever ceremonies you want to spiritually & emotionally feel closer to the one you idolize. Nobody can force you to like/dislike bieber or krisdayanti. True "free will" is when an individial can choose to like one, none, or all without the threat of beheading by members of other fanclub.


bawel
2:37pm Feb 6, 2012

@DrDez and all atheist:

You still owe me the answer of my two questions in this topic :

-> 10:16am Feb 5, 2012: Whether you have better “theory” of human consciousness and the evil problem in the world ?

-> 3:36pm Feb 3, 2012: What do you want God to do to convince you that God exist ?

Do you have big problems to answer that questions ?

Do you want to stop this ‘debate’ to evade that questions and debating chicked and egg instead ???

@DrDez, I know you have tried to answer the second question but you know it’s not a serious answer.


DrDez
1:57pm Feb 6, 2012

Ladies & Gents

Can we stop this now? It matters not one jot what we individually believe in my eyes - so long as we do not use that belief to harm others.. Most posters here support non violence etc etc ...A few of course do not and it is those who use the justification of a deity to do violence that piss me off


Earlier this month, Alexander Aan was detained by the police in West Sumatra for writing, on his Facebook page, “God does not exist.” Alexander, who also administered an atheist group on the social networking site, declared that he does not believe in angels, devils, heaven and hell or other “myths.”

In short, he is an atheist.

I don’t know if Alex has done anything more to justify his arrest, but the incident made me ask why atheism is so frowned upon in Indonesia. Does a person who states that he does not believe in God actually offend religion? Is it only atheists who do not believe in God? Which God, anyway? There are, of course, many religions and many different gods.

For example, Muslims have their own holy book and their own God, each separate from that of Christians. Many Muslims and Christians would consider gods in the shape of an elephant or a monkey (the Hindu gods Ganesh and Hanuman) are nothing but myths. Presumably Hindus would not be happy if they had to worship Allah or Jesus Christ.

This means that if you ascribe to a certain religion, you will usually not believe in gods other than your own. In other words, religious people are atheists when it comes to the gods of other religions.

Even different denominations of the same religion can have different beliefs. Consider the two major communities of Islam in Indonesia, Muhammadiyah and Nahdlatul Ulama. NU believes that tahlil (saying prayers for the dead) is very Islamic since tahlil rituals are dhikr (remembering and honoring God). However, this has been deemed heretical by Muhammadiyah. Praise for God by one denomination can be considered the opposite by another.

Various Christian denominations also have their differences; Protestants and Catholics, for instance. Protestants do not pray to the Virgin Mary. The reason? They believe that the Bible states that Jesus is the only mediator between man and God. Here is the passage they often cite: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). Thus, Protestants usually consider Catholics’ adoration of Mother Mary as idol worship.

On the other hand, Catholics believe that since God chose this woman to be the mother of Jesus, the respect Catholics pay to her is respect to God. Catholics are assured that in choosing a mother, the son of God has granted her a special place in their religion.

There are more examples of denominational difference, a crucial one of which is the belief in heaven and hell. Catholics believe that most people will eventually go to heaven after death. However, people not considered “decent” enough cannot just go straight to this wonderful place, but instead are first sent to purgatory — that is, a place for torture — until they are cleansed of their sins.

On the other hand, there is no purgatory in Protestantism. They only believe that people will go either to heaven or hell, nothing in between. Thus, even in the same religion, God seems to have different rules.

Indeed, one religion or even denomination can be considered heretical to others. If we talk about the world’s religions, can you imagine their differences? How many heavens, hells and varieties of gods are there?

Millennia ago, the polytheistic Romans were generally quite tolerant of other religions. They believed in many gods and often adopted other people’s gods. The belief in a single God, in fact, was considered odd for the inhabitants of the ancient Mediterranean. Consequently, many Greeks, Romans and Egyptians viewed the new religion of Christianity with suspicion.

In 64 CE, during the reign of the emperor Nero (37-68), a fire tore through Rome, lasting six days. In their anger, the people blamed their emperor for the tragedy. Nero quickly pointed his finger at the Christians, who were considered “atheists” for their worship of just one god. Nero ordered that these “atheists” be arrested and tortured.

Christians were the victims in that story, but they would go on to become the persecutors in another time. During the Crusades from the 11th to 13th century, Christians declared war on Muslims.

The point is, in different eras and in different places, various gods can be considered more genuine than others. Who is considered as atheist or not can also vary. One way or another, all of us can be considered atheists by people with differing belief systems. As self-declared atheist Stephen Roberts once said: “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.”

Soe Tjen Marching is the author of “Kisah di Balik Pintu” (“The Story Behind the Door”).




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