DIB, DD: Getting a really bad 3G connection and kinda in the middle of work, I'll respond later tonight. Fine points both of you brought up. Thanks!

KZ

I think its you who fail to see the point. The book is disected alright and selectivley used by all muslims - you included. You choose the nice cosy warm bits that fill you with an inner glow and satisfaction I personally derive from gin - however there are many many others who selectively pick the nasty bits the bits that incite hatred to all things non muslim. The problem you seem to have is that you cant actually agree on anything and that disagreement inevitably results in bloodshed

Sorry chum I like your posts most often but on this issue I cannot agree and the problem you face is that by not being with them you are indeed without and therefore a target

DIB is correct - when you have a devout religious group who are oppressed/downtrodden and indoctrinated with hate the promise of a greater afterlife PLUS no doubt financial / social gain for the family are a major contribution to our current state.

The govt are guilty for not acting but it is the book (and therefore the religion) that is guilty of providing so many opportunities to committ violence and justify it with god

Well said enakajah. If you hear something often enough, however flawed or preposterous, from these hardliners, you start to believe it after a while. Compounded with the incomprehensible actions or inactions of the government, then it makes sense to you eventually. The result you're hooked, line and sinker, and you become one of them.

KneeZar

Perhaps you should read my comment again (they were in response to Muslim4Peaces post) - I acknowledge that there are people with views like you, (muslims4peace for one) thats cool - However despite that you do seem to have missed what I said - selective reading is a trait I have encountered in the 37 years I have worked in Moslem countries (mostly Middle East and Pakistan) even among the educated and liberal moslems is often a denial of reality and a willingness to hide behind outdated literature instead of taking responsibility

I reaffirm my statement.

For everyone like you I see 10 fold the opposite maybe more. Those who share your views are generally saying ziltch - why? Because to disagree is to oppose, to oppose is to be labelled non moslem and to be non muslim is to die. You are right I don’t need to be a scholar I just need to use my eyes – perhaps you do too.

The book you hold so dear gives a multitude of reasons to kill in the name of religion - the book that is so set in stone that cannot be challenged - has such a vast wealth of such verses and they are interpreted and used to do just that. To say otherwise is denying the obvious and denying the actual reality both here, the Middle East and some Western countries like France and the UK where Muslim immigration is causing massive social pressures.

I hear regularly It is unIslamic to kill…….. *except under these circumstances (1,2,3,4,5,……..where its OK in fact its so ok you get a life time pass to heaven…..

I’ve only been here 2 weeks and already I am seeing wanton violence and subjegation carried out in the name of Islam on a daily basis. I don’t need to be a scholar to see the link between what happens and the eco-political will that drives it. Your religion KZ is being overun by a violent minority – they are setting the agenda not you…. *Which is actually my point that you missed

KZ – I do not have a religious leaning I kinda judge people by what they do rather than what they say or call themselves . My many years in moslem countries has changed my view of religion. The last 10 years or so specifically. I used to think that religion was a force for good, a force that helped poor and needy, that built hospitals in remote regions, took health and learning to the poorest in short was what you might call a spiritual humaitarian organisation. The reality I now see is that is is nothing more than a social control mechanism that has evolved to ensure subjegation of the mass whilst simultaeously empowering the greedy – be that with money, power, influence or sheer unadulterated lust for violence. This goes for many religions but where moslems really differ is a willingness to kill because they are so commanded by god – that can be other moslems, other religions even their neighbours or relatives – but to quote Urban II its ok because ‘DUES VULT’ Im happy that most non moslems have moved on from that ideology - in time I hope Islam will catch up

You can try sarcasim on me but I’m from Boston so I probably won’t notice.

Last time I was here was 1997/8 covering the change in ownership, lots have changed , mostly for the good – don’t let your blind faith allow one set of dictators to be replaced by another KZ

Long post sorry guys - but I was misunderstood and rather than protest of burn something I penned it instead

DiB

SAKB: you fail to see the point. It is not about rejecting parts of Quran, but understanding it as a whole. The Quran is not unlike a story book, you can dissect it, take it apart for review, but you need to read it in its entirety and comprehend the moral of the story. The core values do not change change, it is adaptable and quite relevant in the modern world. And intuition is encouraged, not denied or forbidden. Of the current adherents of Islam, the majority still see fit to be judge and jury and take matters in their own hand, claim righteousness, and deem themselves fit to reward or punish others. What they don't realize or refuse to acknowledge is judgement is not in the hands of mere mortals, but it will be meted out on the day of Reckoning by the Supreme Being, Allah.

In matters of the faith, no proof is required my friend, it is just that, a belief or as you say a superstition.